In this Expert Interview, AdvancingWellness CEO Mari Ryan is joined by author, speaker and idea guy Bryan Mattimore to discuss innovation, employee engagement, and wellbeing.  

Mari Ryan: Welcome to the Workplace Wellbeing Essentials Series. I’m Mari Ryan. I’m the CEO and founder of Advancing Wellness. It is my pleasure to welcome you today to this expert interview where we explore topics that impact employee wellbeing. My guest today is Bryan Mattimore.

Bryan is the co-founder and “chief idea guy” at The Growth Engine Company, a 20-year-old innovation and creativity training agency based in Westport, Connecticut. In his marketing consulting career Bryan has managed over 200 successful innovation projects leading to over $3 billion in new sales for one-third of the Fortune 100 companies. Bryan’s three best-selling books on ideation and innovation process include The Idea Stormers: How to Lead and Inspire Creative Breakthroughs and 21 Days to a Big Idea! and is a cum laude graduate of Dartmouth with a major in psychology and is also an innovation and marketing instructor at Cal Tech.

Bryan, welcome. I’m so excited to have you join me today for this conversation.

Bryan Mattimore: Hey, Mari, thanks for having me. You read the intro and I don’t know if it makes me feel experienced or old. 

Mari Ryan: [laughs] Let’s go with experienced.

Bryan Mattimore: I’ll go with that. That sounds good.

Mari Ryan: I’m with you on that one, so that’s good. Our topic today is innovation and creativity in the workplace. We know innovation is the cornerstone of business growth and that it is in some ways essential for business survival. Yet, we have so many things going on, so many distractions in the workplace today that it’s probably hard to be, I would think challenging, to be able to continue to innovate. As we discuss this today, we want to take a look at what it takes to create a culture of innovation. Bryan, let’s just start with having to talk a little bit about when you talk about innovation and creativity in the workplace, how do you define it?

Bryan Mattimore: It’s a great question because people confuse the terms “ideation” versus “innovation.” Ideation is the process of coming up with ideas; innovation is the process of bringing those ideas to market. What people also don’t understand is that first of all, innovation is generally harder. You can get a “eureka” moment, but to make something happen is really tough because not only the ideas but the politics and the funding and the problem-solving every step of the way.

What most people miss is that innovation is a lot of ideas. It’s coming up with ideas at every step of the process. The ideation techniques that we use are not just coming up with the “eurekas,” but also the hundreds or even thousands of challenges that have to be solved at every step of the process of bringing an idea to market, or making an idea happen, if you will.

Mari Ryan: I’m curious as to where creativity comes into play here because as individuals, and I know I used to be this way, I never thought of myself as being creative. How does creativity fit in with your definition of innovation?

Bryan Mattimore: It’s the raw material of innovation. You can’t have new stuff without being creative. Creativity is really pretty simple. Don’t make anybody sound obtuse or tough, it’s just that this thing plus that thing equals a new thing. It’s a mash-up of two things that weren’t together before. Creativity is the uranium, it’s the core, it’s the material that makes the thing go and so people have to allow themselves to be creative in this process. It could be simple, but it’s not easy is probably the way to say it.

Mari Ryan: Well, that’s a great description of it. I’m curious, how do people – and maybe this goes to the work that you do with your clients. We are so often just “heads down” and focused on the work that we do every day. How do you create that environment or step away from the day-to-day status quo to be able to be creative and innovative?

Bryan Mattimore: I once popularized, or tried to popularize a quote,” if you don’t have time to be curious, you are doing something wrong.” I think some of us are born that way and you can’t stop us so we are always looking for ways to be creative because we are curious about the world. So that’s one thing. From an organizational perspective you’ve got the leadership and they have got to be constantly reinforcing that people need to take time for this. If we are honest about it the way it really happens is that certainly on the big ideas teams get together and block out that time so teams can come together and create ideas.

There are also vehicles or mechanisms or even technology that encourage this on an individual basis. So there are all these big and bright ideas and plan boxes. These are sort of interactive suggestion board programs. If you are going to create a culture of innovation you need to be working at all these levels. By the way, anybody who is thinking of doing an innovation room or putting up posters, forget it. That’s ridiculous. This is not the way to create a culture of innovation – I’m just saying.

Mari Ryan: It’s just not a poster on a wall that you write things on, right?

Bryan Mattimore: No, it’s not. People get cynical of that. If you have an innovation room – and these are tried 10 years ago, although some companies still try to do it – they see people in an innovation room and they go what are they doing, they’re not working. They are just hanging out and sitting there or they are playing ping-pong or something. So that is not the answer. I was talking with a guy yesterday and he said, oh we did that, and then we didn’t know what to do.

The other thing is that it’s really important that leadership reinforces this, but also the organization needs to have available to it the knowledge of these different techniques that people can use to become creative. That’s not brainstorming. Brainstorming is somewhat limited it doesn’t work particularly well, so all the what are called now “ideation techniques,” dozens and dozens if not hundreds of these that people can use to come up with new ideas.

Mari Ryan: I love it. I would think that in any workplace when you are thinking about creativity and innovation there’s got to be a certain amount of risk-taking and to a certain extent vulnerability associated with that. I’m curious, how do organizations create a safe environment where it fosters this experience and culture of innovation and creativity?

Bryan Mattimore: You put the essence of innovation challenges here. I mean, we see it all the time. I think of it in three ways. There are people who are risk-takers. My dad, who it started a division of Time Incorporated, that was just his nature. So you’ve got some of those people in the organization. It doesn’t matter what the structure is, they are going to go do something and they are going to get people to follow them.

And then there are the followers if you can align with some of these people who are driven to innovate. Then there are the resistors. That’s in any corporation. These are not bad people. These are people who are making the doughnuts, they have their processes, they are getting their stuff done. You’ve got to have those people too. So there is this constant balance between those.

To answer your question, we don’t start from the top and say, “take risks.” Again, that’s the poster thing. This is probably a very bad analogy for these times, but we like to think of innovation pockets or a benevolent innovation virus, which again is a bad analogy for these times, but the idea is that you can have these pockets of passion where innovation starts happening and that’s how we work with our clients. We don’t start from the top. Give us your biggest challenge, let’s work there, and those start to succeed and what is wonderful then is that the rest of the organization becomes really interested in what these pockets of passion are doing. Then it becomes self-reinforcing and it becomes a virtual cycle where people want to become part of that because it’s fun and it’s great and it’s wonderful.

Mari Ryan: I love the “pockets of passion.” That’s a great line, I love it. Let’s make the connection between innovation and creativity and wellbeing. Research has shown that creativity and subjective wellbeing are correlated. I’m curious, what is your experience working with teams and creating cultures of innovation. Do you see a link with wellbeing?

Bryan Mattimore: I do. I almost hate to admit this but I kind of got goosebumps when you are asking me that question. This gets back to the human spirit. An organization that is not leveraging, and leveraging is probably the wrong word, but creating an environment that allows people to self-actualize is not good. I am so passionate and we will do creativity workshops and I see the light go on in people, and in some ways those people can be forever changed where they rediscover their inherent creativity. That is so, so exciting.

I was reading a quote from Edison this morning. It was an essay about why they won’t think, or something like that. First of all, his point was you have to exercise the creative muscle or the creativity muscle. But he also said those people who are not taking the time to think and be creative are missing out on the greatest pleasure in life. He didn’t say “one of the greatest pleasures,” he said, “the greatest pleasure in life.” 

With our clients, it’s exciting and it’s fun. Any leader who is not creating that environment is doing a lousy job in my opinion.

Mari Ryan: I would think that it might be fair to say, so tell me if you agree with this statement, that innovation is a driver of engagement.

Bryan Mattimore: Yes, I like that a lot. I think this gets back to the leader or the manager’s responsibility. Some people are doing their day-to-day jobs and I think it’s the responsibility of managers and senior leaders to be constantly challenging people to solve things in new ways. This is not just new products, it could be cost-cutting, it could be efficiency, it could be process improvements. We have a technique like an interactive suggestion board where managers can say, put it down there and encourage people. How do we improve customer service and then work on that for a week, those kinds of things.

One of the great things that managers can do is challenge their teams with really interesting challenges. By the way, the more specific, the better. Not how do we make more money, not how do we increase more sales, it’s how do we do a better job with customer service [indecipherable -18:19:07] on a Thursday? Then people get excited about the specifics of it and they are more likely, paradoxically, to add ideas to those kind of specific challenges.

Mari Ryan: I really like this idea of being specific. Let’s solve a particular problem and that makes it seem, I would think, more realistic and achievable because it’s one small thing, it’s not just this massive thing that we are going to have to try and solve. It’s not a moon launch, it’s one particular problem.

Bryan Mattimore: Yes, it’s immediate, and by the way you can encourage your team if you are a manager, not only to come up with ideas, but to come up with pieces of ideas or questions or factoids or interesting research so that everybody can contribute. Everybody does not have to have that eureka moment, but if they present a piece of data or a question, that could trigger a great idea. We have to recognize that people have different skills and capabilities, but we want to leverage all of those. Again, that’s why you do ideation sessions, that’s when you get together, but you can also do that, obviously, with your team.

Research has shown again and again that it’s diversity that creates greatness. It’s these different thinking styles and the mashing together of those that really leads to greatness.

Mari Ryan: I love that. I’m curious, from your perspective, which comes first? Is it creativity in the innovation, or is it wellbeing in the engagement? 

Bryan Mattimore: Yes. [laughter]

Mari Ryan: C’mon! That’s the easy way out.

Bryan Mattimore: I do think that you need to start with mission vision values because that gives people permission. We’ve done a lot of work with clients, not only creating those but certainly on the value side, first of all establishing those and then popularizing those. Popularizing those means constantly reinforcing those. We do programs where we have employees invent ways that are of certain value, like be a pioneer, for instance, could be manifested in their daily jobs in the behaviors of the services that they do every day. That’s a creative act as well. The guy who was welcoming people to your office, that is, for anyone who is going to an office, I mean, how can he be creative and reflect this value and be a pioneer?

I guess the answer would be that I personally think it starts with the leadership of innovation and when that happens then people have the wonderful experience of making new connections to wellbeing and the quote we’ll call “welldoing.” If we could coin a term, how’s that?

Mari Ryan: I love that! Wellbeing and welldoing. That’s great. When I think about this I love that you’ve tied this back to vision mission values because to me purpose and values are so closely tied together and you talk about these “pockets of passion.” I would think that that would help at the individual employee level and at the team level for individuals to feel more connected to the purpose of the organization.

Bryan Mattimore: I sometimes tell this story; I was working with ComEd and I went around and rode the trucks with these guys and it was an unbelievable experience because I was giving a speech to senior managers about creativity and innovation. I asked these guys two questions. I asked the Peter Drucker question, what’s the one thing you would change to improve the company. The other question I ask is what are you most proud of? I was shocked because in every case of these 12 individuals I was with that day, they all said, you know, I did this new idea and they did this. It didn’t have to be a big idea, it could be oh, we got the guys to use cell phones, whatever it is. Some of the guys had been with the company 30 years and that was something they were most proud of. My gosh, if that’s not in indication of how important having the opportunity creative is, I don’t know what is.

Mari Ryan: What a great way to get to the heart of creativity. That’s fabulous. What can organizations do to foster this culture of innovation and creativity? How do you counsel them to start on this?

Bryan Mattimore: Again, there are three levels. There’s the leadership, and they of course have to chart the strategy. That’s really important. You want to be ideating, innovating in the right places. You’ve got it at the team level and you’ve got it at the individual level. I’ve been thinking about this recently and I’m going to start to write about this, I do think organizations – many organizations have a chief innovation officer now, which is fine, but I also think there should be a new title, which is “ideation strategist.” What that is, is the person within the organization, or several people, who is well-versed in these ideation processes and also knows about how to facilitate – and these could be two different people – ideation sessions. When somebody has a challenge that is important, they could go to this ideation strategist team who could counsel them internally on how to run these sessions.

Frankly, 99% of organizations, including the Fortune 500s, which are many of our clients, they still do brainstorming, which is terrible. Of course, ideation is using different techniques and different stimuli to trigger new ideas. The Idea Stormers book that you showed was an attempt to say which techniques will work against different kinds of challenges. If you have a cost-cutting challenge, you may want to use mind-mapping, for instance. If you have a new product challenge, semantic intuition. If you have a logistics challenge, you want to use a visual mapping, disruptive wargaming, customer wishing. Whatever it is, there are dozens and dozens of these approaches. Our work has shown, obviously – not surprising – some techniques work much better than others for solving different kinds of challenges. So, that’s the thing that would be at the top of my head at this moment in time. I have a lot of other suggestions, but I’m intrigued with the idea of creating a new position for an organization called the “ideation strategist.”

Mari Ryan: I think that’s a great idea and it sounds like there is a lot of skill-building and different approaches that are available that could be disseminated throughout the organization so that if more people have those skills then they are going to know when to choose the right approach for whatever solution they are trying to create.

Bryan Mattimore: We usually do a two-day creativity training thing, which is only a part of the work we do. We are innovating, not teaching it so much. When we do ideation workshops and creativity training, we do action learning so that people have to bring real world issues. I can’t get my Mark Jacobs back to the U.S. quickly enough, what can I do? Or we’re launching a new cosmetic – whatever. They bring real world challenges no matter what their function. It could be finance, it could be HR, it could be recruiting and retention. They bring real world challenges, we match up specific techniques with those challenges, and then the two-day workshop is we’re ideating with everybody in the room and come up with solutions. Not only do they learn the technique, they learn how to apply it and in some cases they get unbelievable ideas they can bring back to their teams. That’s the way we like to begin to inculcate or establish or make known there are all these ideation techniques available to them. 

Mari Ryan: It is no surprise to me that you as the “chief idea guy” have so many different ideas and suggestions and approaches on these topics. Bryan, if our audience wants to learn about you and the work you are doing, where can they find you?

Bryan Mattimore: Our website is growth-engine.com. They could call me if they wanted. It’s my cell and we’re out of the office these days. My cell is 203.550.4487. Certainly the books. I think the books, The Idea Stormers and 21 Days to a Big Idea, those I think are all good starting points to some of the stuff we’ve talked about here today.

Mari Ryan: Fabulous. Just really grateful to have you here for this conversation. As always, it’s wonderful to spend time with you and I love that we coined a new term today, not just wellbeing, but welldoing.

Bryan Mattimore: Thank you, Mari. I learned a lot from your questions, so I appreciate that and it was really fun to be with you today. Thank you.

Mari Ryan: My pleasure. Thanks, Bryan.

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