Enneagram and Feeling on the Grief Gratitude Podcast

Delighted to be in conversation with Kendra Rinaldi, host of the Grief Gratitude Podcast.  On Episode #115, Kendra and I discuss the Enneagram and how different Enneagram types process feelings.

Grief Gratitude Podcast Episode #115: https://www.griefgratitudeandthegrayinbetween.com/podcast/episode/8e9f5db2/115-using-enneagrams-to-understand-ouselves-and-others-with-matt-schlegel

Discover more episodes here: https://www.griefgratitudeandthegrayinbetween.com/podcast

Learn about Kendra’s coaching services here: https://www.griefgratitudeandthegrayinbetween.com/

Connect with Kendra on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/%F0%9F%8C%80kendra-rinaldi%F0%9F%8C%80-69186376/

[Podcast Transcript]

Matt Schlegel:

Each one of these types has a first reaction to a super stressful situation. And so for the gut people, it’s driven by anger. For the heart people, it’s driven by feelings and including sadness and grief. And then for the head people, it’s anxiety. So when people are going through a transition, depending on what their enneagram type is, they will probably start with one of those three.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Hello and welcome to Grief, Gratitude and the Gray in Between podcast. This podcast is about exploring the grief that occurs at different times in our lives in which we have had major changes in transitions that literally shake us to the core and make us experience grief. I created this podcast for people to feel a little less hopeless and alone in their own grief process as they hear the stories of others who have had similar journeys. I’m Kendra Rinaldi, your host. Now let’s dive right in to today’s episode.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Welcome to today’s episode. We have Matt Schlegel on and we will be talking about his book, Teamwork 9.0 and talking about enneagrams and how we can use it to solve problems, including climate change. So that is a big one, that’s a big one. So welcome, Matt.

Matt Schlegel:

So great to be with you here, Kendra. Thanks for having me.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Thank you. Thank you for being here. I’m so glad to have you on. And I was telling the assistant that reached out to tell me about your book regarding enneagrams. I’m like, “Oh yes. I’ve been looking into that.” And I had already had my children do to see which enneagram… Oh, okay, let’s get that one. Enneagram, enneagram, enneagram.

Matt Schlegel:

Enneagram.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Enneagram, enneagram. Okay, I’ll just say it that way. Enneagram. What enneagram number my kids were just so that I could even know how to relate with them. I had made them do the test. I already had an idea which one they were and I was right on one child. I wasn’t right on the other, which was surprising. And then just recently I did it myself. Funny, I had done it for my kids, but I had not done for mine.

Matt Schlegel:

Are you going to tell us?

Kendra Rinaldi:

So I will tell you which one came up, number two. Yeah, I’m a two. I’m a two, that one came up. What about you? What number are you?

Matt Schlegel:

I’m a six.

Kendra Rinaldi:

You’re a six? So tell us, okay, my gosh we’re jumping already ahead. So what is number six? What is that one?

Matt Schlegel:

Oh, so sometimes we’re called the loyalist, sometimes we’re called like the bureaucrat, sometimes we’re called the questioner. We ask lots of questions. We like systems, we things to go in order predictably so that’s why we create these systems to try to make things happen in a predictable way.

Kendra Rinaldi:

And that’s exactly what you did. So tell us your background, because you’d wrote a book, but tell us what your background is and why it is that systems is definitely your niche.

Matt Schlegel:

Exactly. So yeah, I started out with a technical background engineering. I became an engineer and at some point my manager came to me and said, “Hey, Matt, I want you to be a manager.” And I said, “I don’t know how to manage people. I only know about managing electrons.” And he said, “Don’t worry, you’ll be fine.’ But now that you know I’m a six, you know I’m not fine. And so I started studying everything, studying, studying, studying, and then I came across all of these tools to help teams and people be more effective in working together. And one of those systems I came across was the enneagram.

Matt Schlegel:

So my engineering brain likes to pull these systems apart and put them back together and see what works well and what doesn’t. And no matter how much I poked and prodded at enneagrams, it’s like, “Oh, this is amazing.” It’s like, it just keeps going and going and going and is so powerful and it’s so effective at predicting how things will work out, which appeals to a type six, obviously. So that’s why I just became fascinated with it. I ended up using it at work with my team, both as a personality system. And then I asked the question, why are the enneagram types numbers? Why aren’t they letters or colors or animals, or why numbers?

Kendra Rinaldi:

And why?

Matt Schlegel:

Well, it turns out that the numbers are there for a reason and it’s exact order in which humans solve problems. So there is a personality dynamic associated with each type and that dynamic is exactly the dynamic you need in problem solving for that step. So for instance, the type one is sometimes called the perfectionist and they’re the ones that say, “Hey, it shouldn’t be like that, it should be like this.’ Well, what’s the first step in problem solving, “Hey, there’s a problem. It shouldn’t be like that. It should be like this.” And on and around. So step two, for instance if you-

Kendra Rinaldi:

With the mind?

Matt Schlegel:

Relating to the step two, the step two is who cares? Who cares about the problem? If somebody thinks there’s a problem and nobody around them cares, then you’re probably not going to end up solving the problem. But if the one brings up, “Hey, there’s a problem.” And then a bunch of people around them say, “Yeah, you’re right. We care. There is a problem,” then guess what? The problem gets solved. You move to step three, let’s come up with some ideas. And step four, oh, let’s pick a good idea. And step five, let’s analyze the ideas. Step six, oh, let’s build a plan to get to the goal. Seven, let’s get everybody excited. Step eight, let’s stop talking and do it. And step nine, how did it work?

Kendra Rinaldi:

That’s so perfect. Yeah. So then if nine people were to be in a team and each one was one number, then would that make that team be more effective if there was a one or two all the way through nine.

Matt Schlegel:

Right, exactly. It would be a perfectly balanced team. Now, the odds that you would get nine people, all one of each type together is almost astronomical that would happen. So most teams aren’t balanced like that, which is why I have a consulting practice.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Yes. And I liked I just went to your link right now, which by the way I’ll make sure to link in the show notes so that people can go because you have a free assessment one, and yours was actually easier. I didn’t have time right before our call to fill it out and I had already done it in another website, but I felt the way you just checkmarked on these was easier than these other ones that go into these questions that it’s like from inaccurate to accurate kind of like, where are you? It’s a little more gray area when you’re answering. And you’re like, “Eh, am I like?” So those are a little more ambiguous sometimes in these other websites to answer. And I thought yours was really clear and concise because you just check mark which ones apply to you and then you kind of know in the number that you check mark the most, that probably that’s yours.

Matt Schlegel:

Exactly. And just one warning about enneagram assessments. In my experience, the one that I have up right now on my website is a good one but you have to also acknowledge that you’re coming to the test at a certain state in your life. Like for instance, when I first took the assessment years ago, I tested highest as an eight and six was the next highest. They were about the same, but eight was a little higher. And that’s because I was working in a situation surrounded by eights where eight behavior was expected and I was behaving like an eight and I was just filling the role that was expected of me. So when I checked off those things, I was like, “Yeah, I do that. Yeah, I do that. Yeah, I do that.” And I wasn’t thinking about, is that really the way I would respond if I were just doing it on my own or am I doing it because that’s what’s expected me of my culture? And so just be aware that sometimes you may not score the highest on your actual core type.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Okay. Now with that said, do you notice that the same can occur then in a family in which maybe you end up being more of a number because that’s what maybe is needed more in that role as a parent or something, that you end up kind of becoming more of a certain number in that dynamic as well?

Matt Schlegel:

I think that’s more true for adults than for children. If it’s children taking the test, they’re less in control and they’ve been less culturized into behaving in certain ways in certain situations. And so they tend to answer the questions more honestly. And so I’d say that’s more of a situation for an adult, like being a mother, there’s a lot of twoness in being a mother. And so if you’re a mother and you’re taking care of kids, you’re like, “Yeah, I do that. Yeah, I do that.”

Kendra Rinaldi:

Yeah, I’m a two, I’m a two, yeah.

Matt Schlegel:

You’re behaving like a two whether you’re a two or not as a mother.

Kendra Rinaldi:

That’s so true, that’s so true. Okay, so now let’s talk a little bit about your life. So where do you live? And then we already found out how it is you came about developing the system, but I wanted to learn more about you. So where do you live and a little bit about your family?

Matt Schlegel:

Yeah, so I live in the San Francisco Bay Area and I’m married for 31 years. I have three kids. The oldest is 28, living up in Seattle, next is down in San Diego and both are young women who are successfully out on their own and I’m very proud of them. And then I have a son who is still with us here in the home. He’s in college, he’s taking classes and he’s studying likely to be an engineer.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Like dad.

Matt Schlegel:

Following in his dad’s footsteps a little bit. And I’m very proud of him in the progress he’s making too. So, yeah, it’s great.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Excellent. Now, how did this enneagram, did you end up making everybody test when you found this out? How long ago did you find out about enneagrams and did you end up then having everyone in your family then take the test?

Matt Schlegel:

Yeah, so I’ve been working with the enneagram for over 20 years now. And we actually learned it through my wife’s church so the pastor at my wife’s church is really into the enneagram. And in fact, he now has a foundation that focuses on different elements of spirituality that aren’t necessarily religious. And one of those is the enneagram. And so he actually has invited me to become the director of enneagram studies for his foundation. So he’s my long time mentor on the enneagram and still we do monthly enneagram workshops together. So that’s a long way of saying I actually came into it after most of my family already knew it. And when I’m taking the test and then I’m testing eight and they’re looking at me like, “You’re not an eight,” you know what I’m saying? I’m like, “Oh, okay.”

Kendra Rinaldi:

And you’re like, okay so if you go with the flow, then wait, are eights more rigid or eights more…?

Matt Schlegel:

No, no. I mean, eight are probably less rigid. They’re the ones who like to be in control so they’re the boss or the asserter, that’s that style, right?

Kendra Rinaldi:

Okay. But when you said “No, okay, I’m a six,” That’s why I said, oh, okay. Maybe you weren’t an eight if you’re like, “Okay, yeah, I’ll go with the six,” because maybe if you were an eight, you would’ve been like, no, no, I’m an eight. I know I am

Matt Schlegel:

That’s right. Exactly, exactly. Yeah. It’s like when they said you’re not an eight, it makes me think, which is exactly what a six does, right?

Kendra Rinaldi:

Yes, exactly. You’re like, “Oh wait. No, yeah, you’re right, I’m not.” Okay, so then you did that then in your personal life and then how is it that then you started then to implement? So when you were given this role at work to be a project manager, you’re like, “How am I going to manage people?” You come up with this system, this tool, how did you start implementing it then with your team?

Matt Schlegel:

Right. Well, first of all like most people you come into the enneagram through that personality aspect of it. So that problem solving process, the one through nine came later. So I just started using it with my team and introduced them to it, got them to understand each other’s styles and types. And and it was really very effective at helping everybody understand each other’s perspective. And most importantly, it gives you a vocabulary. It gives you a vocabulary to talk about these different dynamics that are going on, right? When some conflict arises and you have the vocabulary of the enneagram, and you could say, “Well, you are one and you are a seven, and you know the ones have this objective, the sevens have this objective.” And you’re all trying to get to the same end point, but you have these different perspectives and that’s where this conflict is arising and so let’s talk about that.

Matt Schlegel:

And that’s one of the things I’m most grateful about for the system is that vocabulary and then allowing people to just open up that possibility that, “Oh, well, yeah, my perspective isn’t the only perspective and now that I understand they are one and I understand what’s important to them I can totally see why they’re doing that and, well, this is the common ground, so let’s do that.” Boom, done.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Then it helps. Now, how open are people in general to take the test, when you’re managing a team, are people really excited to find out what they are? Are people reluctant or do people see how beneficial this could be in that team or work environment? You know what I mean? Have you had all kinds of people, be like, “Nah, I don’t want to do that.”

Matt Schlegel:

All of the above. And it depends on the type. Some types, like you said earlier, eight, I am an eight. Yeah, okay, let’s go, right? I mean, eight is one, they don’t mind being an eight and they resonate with that eightness and it’s done. And certain type ones are also, they pretty easily self-identify. But then some of the other types have more trouble like take the nine, right? The nine is the master at understanding everybody’s perspective. That’s what they do, they’re always thinking of others, they’re always putting themselves into other people’s shoes. And so it’s really hard for them to, say, “Well then who am I?” And so when you’re talking to a nine, it’s like, “Well, maybe that is one of the aspects of being a nine is that you can do this.” Oh, okay, right? So each type, another one is fours, they’re able to put themselves in everybody’s emotional shoes. And so sometimes they have a little more trouble. Fives, they tend to be able to masterfully take on different roles and personas in the environment. So they feel like they can be anybody and to the point where like, “Okay, so which one am I?”

Kendra Rinaldi:

Which one am I? Because they’re a chameleon, uh-huh.

Matt Schlegel:

And the one that they are is the one that’s able to put themselves in everybody’s personas.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Right, right, right, right, right, right. So, yeah, so then it helps. Now in the work environment when you’ve done this, do you see that there’s numbers that work better together in general personality wise? What would you say is that? Is there a particular formula for that?

Matt Schlegel:

Right, and I actually write about this in a chapter in my book called Work Team Triads. And I first noticed it just anecdotally, just seeing if you just throw people together and they kind of organically start to work together and then I would see which types are just naturally working together. And I found out that there are these three distinct groups that just naturally work together with almost no conflict at all. It’s just like, wow. And I call them work team triads, and I gave them names, but there is another author who called them the harmony triads.

Matt Schlegel:

And so they’re the one, the four and the seven; the two, the five and the eight; and the three, six and nine. And so those groups of three tend to like each other and work well together. And so that’s a really interesting facet that I’ve found of this. And each one of those teams brings a certain distinct dynamic, right? So if you have a one and a seven and the four together, they want to do new, innovative, fun stuff, right? So that’s your team for like exploring new possibilities. And then the two, five and the eight, what they want to do is like, “We want to get stuff done.”

Matt Schlegel:

And then so then those are the type of people who tend to migrate to more operations types of roles in companies where they’re just cranking out product or they’re running the place, right? And then the three, six, nine, that’s the group that kind of wants to look at everything and build a smooth operating structure for everything, right? And so they tend to put in place the organizations and the systems that just kind of make it all work together. And so those are kind of the three, and you’ll see companies go through that same phase too, right?

Kendra Rinaldi:

Well, that’s what I was just going to say, yeah, because you need the creatives to come up with the idea of what it is going to be to then hand off to the two, the fives and the eights to then implement it to then hand to the team that’s a three, six, nine to then be able to create the whole picture.

Matt Schlegel:

Exactly. So I call them the startup triad, the industrious triad and the systematizing triad.

Kendra Rinaldi:

That is so cool. Okay, so those are triads. Now, are there numbers, let’s say that would work, I know you mainly do it for work environments but would there be then numbers that work together as teams in relationship wise too? Because these are tryouts, which ones would be like numbers that work well, just as binary?

Matt Schlegel:

Right, right. So so any combination of those harmony triads. So oftentimes you’ll see eights and twos pair up eights, twos and fives, any combination of those will pair up. One, fours and sevens, you see that all the time, ones and sevens marry each other all the time. The other one is three, six, nines. I see couples from that triad together all the time.

Matt Schlegel:

And then there’s one other pattern that I’ve seen, and this is a really interesting aspect of the enneagram, is that for any type, the hardest dynamic… So I’m a six and I’m kind of in my six dynamic and I have more or less access to the other dynamics, the other eight dynamics, but generally the hardest dynamic for any type to access is one type hire. Like for me, it’s the seven, right? And that is true almost all the time, all the way around.

Matt Schlegel:

So here’s what I see happen is that when women, because women make the choice usually in the relationship, right? So when women are looking for somebody to partner with, they see tin hat person who is one type, one number higher, someone who’s very complimentary to them. So I see this all the time and it does get a little bit gender related in this case, but that’s just the pattern I’ve observed is that the woman will often choose a man who is one number higher. And so that’s another pattern I see.

Kendra Rinaldi:

That is interesting. Now I’m curious now because you’ve interviewed then a lot of people to be able to see all these patterns, you’ve been able to observe a lot of different people. Because with this podcast being a lot regarding grief, have you noticed in situations that are hard how each number deals with transitions differently, like a change in life? Could you talk a little bit about that and how would that apply in situations like that in their life?

Matt Schlegel:

Yeah, yes. Great question. And enneagram really can speak to this very well because there’s another set of triads in the enneagram. And these are called the centers, these are the main triads of the enneagram. It’s the eight, nine, one; the two, three four; and the five, six seven. And the best way I found to explain this is if you’ve seen the movie The Wizard of Oz and there’s Dorothy and she meets these three characters on her journey. She meets the lion who wants courage, meets the tin man who wants a heart and meets the scarecrow who wants a head. And those are exactly the same elements that are associated with these main triads. The eight, nine, one are the gut people. Th two, three, four are the heart people. And the five, six, seven are the head people.

Matt Schlegel:

And then each one of these types has a first reaction to a super stressful situation. And so for the gut people, it’s driven by anger. For the heart people, it’s driven by feelings and including sadness and grief. And then for the head people it’s anxiety. So when people are going through a transition, depending on what their enneagram type is, they will probably start with one of those three. Some people will go straight to grief, some people will go to anger and some people will go to anxiety and have panic attacks, right? So for instance, when I saw the title of your podcast, I knew immediately that you were in the two, three, four group, because you start off with grief and gratitude, which is exactly, the grief is the two, three, four, and the gratitude is the two. So if you had asked me just from the podcast title, I could have guessed two.

Kendra Rinaldi:

That is so interesting. It’s interesting how much you can know about someone just by these choices. And then with knowing this then too, then in assimilating when other people are going through something hard, by knowing your enneagram and by knowing other people and your families’ enneagram, you can know where they’re at in that moment of their transition and why it is that maybe they’re leading more towards the anxiety component in that transition, rather than with the grief and the sadness or the other person maybe leading with anger. And it helps you understand and be more empathetic towards the way that each of us is dealing with it differently.

Matt Schlegel:

Exactly, exactly, exactly. And no response is wrong, right? There is no wrong response. And we’re humans. And this is the one thing I love about the enneagram is because just once I understood I’m a six and being a six guy in America is kind of a tough thing, it’s not the normal accepted behavior for a guy. The kind of the prototypical guy model is the eight. And so as a six I’m having to kind of step out of my comfort zone and be more like what’s expected of me in my culture. And then if you’re not aware that you’re doing that intentionally, and you’re just like, “Oh, what’s wrong with me? Why can’t I just do what comes to them naturally?” It can be a little self defeating, right?

Matt Schlegel:

But once you understand your enneagram type, and then you understand what is your gift, what is your superpower in problem solving? Because we all have a superpower in problem solving. We all have this superpower that we can contribute to helping everybody else out. And then once you know that, it’s like, oh I feel the way I am, because that’s exactly the right thing for me to feel and I just need to now know how to channel that into a healthy contribution to the group and not let it control me. I’m just using it to inform me.

Kendra Rinaldi:

That’s the right word.

Matt Schlegel:

I can now inform the group better about what is going on. Does that make sense?

Kendra Rinaldi:

Yes, absolutely. And I think that is so important because sometimes we’re so hard on ourselves in how it is we react to situations. We’re our biggest judge, right? And so by being understanding and having grace with ourselves and the way that we deal with certain situations and the way that we react based on our personality, it gives us also that capacity of having grace with others, if we have grace with ourselves as well.

Matt Schlegel:

Yes, right. And then, yeah, once you have that acceptance of yourself and “Oh, it’s okay for me to feel anxious. I’m supposed to feel anxious. It’s not a problem.” And then it’s like, “Oh, it’s okay for them to be angry, that’s exactly what they’re supposed to be doing. It’s okay for them to be sad, that’s exactly what they’re supposed to be doing. It’s all okay.” And then we can just like, what is that telling us? Why are they sad? What about what we’re doing is causing-

Kendra Rinaldi:

Bringing up those emotions.

Matt Schlegel:

Them to be sad and what can we do to help them overcome that?

Kendra Rinaldi:

Yes. No, that is awesome. Now you mentioned before we started recording how then these enneagrams can also help us with climate change.

Matt Schlegel:

Yes.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Okay, let’s go into that. How is it that understanding this can then lead us to solve these bigger world problems?

Matt Schlegel:

Right, right, yeah. So you can look at the challenge of climate change as a problem, right? It’s a problem, right? And so step one in that problem solving process is identifying that, “Oh, there’s a problem.” And so then once you say, “Okay, there’s a problem,” then you go to step two, which is, do you care? And I would say right now collectively, and I live in America so I’ll just speak for America, in my impression is not enough people yet care, right? Once enough people care then action starts to happen, right? And so I think we’re in this process now of moving from realization of the problem and then moving into caring about the problem.

Matt Schlegel:

But there’s a big challenge with caring about climate change, which is different from other challenges in a big way. And that is that once you acknowledge that, “Oh, there’s a climate crisis and it’s caused by burning fossil fuels, that’s the root cause of this is burning fossil fuels.” Then you’re like, “If I acknowledge that problem, does that mean I have to stop burning fossil fuels? Does that mean I have to start thinking about how I’m using fossil fuels? When I’m showering, is that a gas heater out there heating up that water? When I get in my car, am I burning fossil fuels to get to work? I get on an airplane, am I burning fossil fuel kerosene as I’m flying across the country?”

Kendra Rinaldi:

As I’m using this plastic cup, did fossil fuel go into creating this? So many things.

Matt Schlegel:

Exactly. And so once you get to that point, in that process, I look at it as a grieving process and what’s the first step in grieving? Denial.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Realization. Well, oh, denial, yeah. If we go by the steps, yeah. Or that realization, yeah. Okay.

Matt Schlegel:

So it’s a lot easier for us to just deny the problem and deny there’s a problem and blithely go along on our lives and just ignore the problem.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Because if we accept it, then we have to take action, which is way more work.

Matt Schlegel:

But it’s more than that, it’s actually going through the grieving process. And you see it, right? Some people will get sad, so we have climate grief now, that’s a term, we have climate anxiety or eco anxiety, that’s a term. So you can see, and then you get people-

Kendra Rinaldi:

Anger.

Matt Schlegel:

Who go to just like we had, I think the mass shooting we had in Buffalo is a manifestation of somebody who’s reacting to climate with anger. And so we’re going to see these reactions to the climate crisis, anger, we’re going to see grief and we’re going to see anxiety. And we’re going to be just seeing more and more of it because the climate crisis isn’t going away and we’re all going to be impacted by it soon. And so I know this is kind of heavy stuff, but the enneagram does give us a model for how humanity will respond in our various ways. And then and the hopeful thing is as more and more of us actually overcome our denial then and our impact and work start to work through that grieving process, that’s going to get us to action. That is the thing that will get us to action.

Kendra Rinaldi:

And now in that action then, I was having this conversation right before in the other interview I was having. And it’s about like, sometimes we think these big things are happening war. Okay, what do I do about that?” Can I go and stop the actual, no. So there’s other smaller things we can do in our day-to-day to have a ripple effect in the big scheme. So in that action then that we can each take then for climate change and the impact each of us are making, what would you say, going back to enneagram, are there then some specific things then that in each enneagram group, enneagram group would then lead more towards doing?

Matt Schlegel:

Right, yeah. And that’s a great question. And what I tell people is once they do get to the point where they want to take action, the climate crisis is, there’s a term now called hyperobject. The hyperobject is the thing that touches everything, right? And there’s a parable about the elephant and the five blind men and you put five blind men into a room-

Kendra Rinaldi:

Yeah, each touching part of it, yeah.

Matt Schlegel:

Right, and they’re all describing the problem in different ways, but the real problem is it’s the elephant in the room. And so when I talk to people who want to take action, I ask them, “Well, what are you passionate about? Are you passionate about recycling, or are you passionate about reducing single use plastic, or are you passionate about working with your local representative and getting them to do something?” Because we all need to do everything and so the best thing to do is the thing that you’re passionate about, because you’re bringing your whole heart and your whole self to it, and that will infect other people to want to join you because they’ll see your passion and they’ll want to join you in doing it. And so there’s no wrong answer in taking climate action. It’s an all of the above thing and just follow your heart and do what you can do while keeping in mind that the most important thing you can do is actually start to reduce the amount of fossil fuel you burn in your life.

Matt Schlegel:

And then be that example. So if you can bike instead of getting into the car, bike instead of getting into the car and show everybody, “Hey, I’m biking, I’m going to bike to the station instead of taking the car,” whatever, just start thinking about how you’re using. We’re electrifying our home and the last appliance that we had was the water heater, and we replaced our gas water heater with a heat pump water heater, and we turned off the gas to the house now there’s no gas flowing to the house and it’s great. And now the city is going to interview me and ask me about the experience and then they’re going to put up my testimonial and so I’m just going to like there are poeople that do it.

Kendra Rinaldi:

That’s the ripple effect right there, right?

Matt Schlegel:

And that’s what we want to do, yeah, yeah.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Yeah, yes. Just one little thing can make a difference. Now, and in the same aspect then back again to even just the teamwork, Teamwork 9.0, that’s teamwork right there in the big scope of things of life right there. And then in your work environment, then the same, when we know that what we’re doing has an impact in the organization we’re part of, in the family unit we’re, in the city we live in and so forth it does make a difference. When we realize our actions do affect another human being. So it all comes down also to that, that connectiveness of humanness, of each other.

Matt Schlegel:

It’s very scalable. From the smallest team, like you and your partner or you and your family, or I joined rock band last year.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Oh, how cool? What do you play? Do you play or do you sing?

Matt Schlegel:

So I’m kind of the utility player. I’ve been doing vocals, bass and drums with this band. So yeah, but all of them have different enneagram styles so you see all those dynamics come into play in that situation too. But it’s everywhere, right? And then, “Oh, she’s a one, that’s why she’s bringing this up.” And okay, I understand that and let’s work with her to help her solve this thing that she thinks is wrong and let’s help her get it to being right.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Did you make them all in the band also take the test?

Matt Schlegel:

I haven’t said anything about the enneagram for that. This is all just going on in my mind.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Yeah, now they’re going to have to take it so that you guys even can just work more effectively. Yeah, that’d be interesting that in every single dynamic that we’re in if we were to take that. But if not, then, like you said, if we even have an understanding of what other people are in terms of personality is just how we relate to them that also shifts and just by even changing that dynamic and that interaction, it already has an effect on the team.

Matt Schlegel:

Right, and this just came up the other day. One of the persons who’s a type one had made a comment and I thought how would I respond to that? And I’m like, so they’re in the intuitive group and I’m in the head group, and the comment they made really made no sense to me, to my rational brain. But whatever I would say would come from a place of like, “That doesn’t make sense. Can you explain that to me?” Whereas there’s another person in the band who is also in that intuitive group who’s a nine. And I know the nine will always say the nicest, softest thing and will understand the one way better than I do. So I just zipped my mouth and I just waited and sure enough, the nine spoke up and said the most perfect thing. So just having that knowledge and just being able to check myself and my reaction and just letting that naturally happen.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Oh, how beautiful?

Matt Schlegel:

That was worth the price of a mission on learning the enneagram, just for that.

Kendra Rinaldi:

That’s beautiful, but that takes a lot of self control to do what you did of just like, “Okay, let me just wait because I know that I will not say the right thing to this number one but if I just wait a number nine will say the right thing in order to be out of the situation. That’s wonderful. Okay, so then how many years has it been that you’ve been using this then in the workspace? I know you said 20 years ago was when your wife first brought it. And honestly, it’s only been in the last year that I’ve heard about this for myself. I had not heard about this. But again, I’m not testing myself all the time to figure out what personality trait I am.

Matt Schlegel:

But the millennials are all over this.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Yes. Oh, I’m hearing it so much now. Yeah.

Matt Schlegel:

Yeah. And if you go on to YouTube and you Google enneagram, there is just some hilarious comments, videos about different enneagram types.

Kendra Rinaldi:

What they would do in the same situation? Yeah, like how they would have… It’s funny, it’s funny.

Matt Schlegel:

It’s so funny and it’s a great way to learn about the different styles.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Yeah. So for you then when did you start implementing it then in your strategy?

Matt Schlegel:

It was shortly after I learned. I just started talking to people about it, it was a part of my learning process. Do you know this? Are you interested? And other people in my group would say, “Yeah, I’ll take the test, sure,” and they took it and so it was pretty much right away that I was able to start to use it in the work setting very informally at first. Yeah.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Okay. And now let’s talk about your book. When did you launch it and how do people, how can people get ahold of it?

Matt Schlegel:

Oh yeah. So thank you for that. We launched it March 2020, right as we were going into pandemic world. And so, yeah, and it’s available on Amazon and definitely check it out and you can go to the website and take that assessment and that’s complimentary and just love to get your feedback on your thoughts on the book and how you’re using it. It’s always a delight to hear the different stories and different experiences people are having.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Now, who is this book for? Who is it for? Is it for someone that, like yourself, was a project manager that needed to figure out, is it for a parent? Is it for a teacher? Is it for somebody in the workspace? Who is the best person for this book?

Matt Schlegel:

So the answer is leaders of teams. So I was thinking of project and program managers, I had them in mind. And then I just had managers in general, who are managing a team and leaders in general, who are leading a team I wrote the book for them. It is just such a powerful tool for a leader to have that knowledge, even if their team doesn’t. I’m sharing examples of how I use it with my band, right? They don’t know the enneagram, but I know the enneagram. And as a leader I want everybody to work well together and I know when I can jump in and when I shouldn’t, and once other people can jump in and it’s the perfect thing, right? And so understanding, I mean, and I talk about, I have a chapter called shared leadership. It’s like when is it better for you to step back and let somebody else take that lead rather than just jumping in yourself? But it’s for it’s for leaders in general that I really have targeted the book.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Wonderful, wonderful. Now, is there anything I have not asked you that you would like to share or any final words for the listeners as they’re listening? Again, we’ve gotten a lot, we’ve gotten of how it is you can use it just for yourself, knowing your enneagram, how is that helpful for yourself? How is it helpful when you’re interacting with others in a work environment? How is it helpful in understanding that as you’re dealing with a transition or grief experience in your life, or a difficult time, and then how is it helpful when you’re leading also then teams? So what other things would you like to share with the listeners regarding how they can use this knowledge, this tool?

Matt Schlegel:

Yeah, and I just so appreciate this conversation and you asked all the right question, is so great to be able to share this. So you did such a good job of leading us through that, I don’t have anything else to add.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Oh, well, I’m glad, I’m glad I was able to ask the right questions to get to that. So thank you, I learned so much about it. I learned so much about it. And again, the book is Teamwork 9.0 and author Matt Schlegel, who is with us today again. And thank you so much again for sharing your knowledge and on this topic and your own life experiences of how you’ve used this in your life so thank you.

Matt Schlegel:

Thank you, Kendra. It was a delight meeting with you today.

Kendra Rinaldi:

Thank you again so much for choosing to listen today. I hope that you can take away a few nuggets from today’s episode that can bring you comfort in your times of grief. If so, it would mean so much to me if you would rate and comment on this episode, and if you feel inspired in some way to share it with someone who may need to hear this, please do. So also, if you or someone has a story of grief and gratitude that should be shared so that others can be inspired as well. Please reach out to me and thanks once again for tuning into Grief, Gratitude, and the Gray in Between podcast. Have a beautiful day.

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