Chris Ruzicka: The Power of Business Development and Networking in Law Firms

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Chris Ruzicka discuss:

• Networking and relationship building
• The role of business development in law firms
• Why many lawyers struggle with sales and networking
• Making the most out of networking opportunities

Key Takeaways:

• Building strong relationships is key to business development by focusing on genuine connections over immediate sales and starting with familiar, comfortable contacts.
• Non-lawyers add significant value in law firms by handling networking, generating referrals, and guiding attorneys in business development strategies that drive firm growth.
• Effective networking relies on thorough preparation through researching contacts, utilizing LinkedIn, and planning conversations to establish rapport.
• Consistent follow-up strengthens professional relationships by maintaining regular communication and making strategic introductions to turn connections into business opportunities.

“[Business development people] can provide attorneys with additional ammo, additional help, and additional support to not only recruit but also retain.” —  Chris Ruzicka

Read Steve’s past episodes as Blogcasts—visit now: https://www.fretzin.com/blog/

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About Chris Ruzicka: Chris Ruzicka, Director of Business Development at the Carmody MacDonald law firm in St. Louis, Missouri, provides attorneys, clients, referral partners, and network connections with ideas and resources to improve their sales and marketing efforts. Chris’ primary objective is to market the firm and its attorneys while securing weekly referrals for the law firm.

His extensive business development and marketing experience, ranging from start-ups to large organizations such as Anheuser-Busch and Sara Lee, enables him to bring innovative ideas and best practices to the firm and his connections. Chris regularly presents to groups on the topics of effective networking for business and how to develop a simplified, sensible marketing plan.

Connect with Chris Ruzicka:  

Website: https://carmodymacdonald.com/

Phone: 314-854-8603

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/christopherruzicka/ & https://www.linkedin.com/company/carmody-macdonald-p-c-/mycompany/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/carmodymacdonaldpc/

Connect with Steve Fretzin:

LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

Instagram: @fretzinsteve

Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.

Website: Fretzin.com

Email: Steve@Fretzin.com

Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!

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Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.

FULL TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] Steve Fretzin: Hey listeners, I know you’re getting a ton of amazing tips from our expert guests here on the show, but keeping track of them can be a challenge. I know that. That’s why I’ve created Blogcasts, the perfect way to capture the best insights from every episode. Each Blogcast condenses an entire show into a two page summary packed with key takeaways that you can apply right away.

[00:00:21] Steve Fretzin: Head over to Fretzin. com slash blog to start reading, learning, and taking action. Let these blog casts help you on your journey to be that lawyer with Fretzin. Now, enjoy the show

[00:00:35] Narrator: You’re listening to be that lawyer life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice Each episode your host author and lawyer coach Steve Fretzin Will take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results Now, here’s your host Steve Fretzin 

[00:00:56] Steve Fretzin: Well, hey everybody welcome to the be that lawyer with Fretzin podcast.

[00:01:02] Steve Fretzin: We are back, baby. We’re doing great, great episodes. I’m bringing you the best hits I can, the best guests and, and, and trying to give you guys tactical, actual advice. I’m one of these guys who hates when it’s all, you know, 20, 000 feet up and figure it, figure it out yourself. We want to make sure you’re walking away with two, three tips from every show that could be on marketing, business development, time management, health and wellness, whatever it is, that’s going to help you live your best lawyer’s life.

[00:01:26] Steve Fretzin: That’s what was going on here. Today is no different. I’ve got one of my good buddies, Chris, in the wings. How’s it going, Chris? Great, Steve. Great to be here. You ready to rock and roll? Yes, for sure. We’re gonna bring your A game? I hope. With your couch. I’ll stop with the interrogation. We’re gonna have some fun.

[00:01:43] Steve Fretzin: I know you and I we go back a little bit and you know, we’ve, we’ve just, you know, we, I think we’ve just kind of connected at such a level where we really appreciate and enjoy each other. And love to just share ideas and and I’m just happy to finally get you on the show. And I’ve been begging you for years now.

[00:01:58] Steve Fretzin: I haven’t, but, but, but I’m happy that you’re here and I know we’re going to have a really good, a really good time. So welcome my friend. 

[00:02:04] Chris Ruzicka: Well, thanks. I, this is quite a compliment. I brought you in, as you know, about a year ago to speak to our attorneys here and I continue to use the material and reinforce some of the things that you’ve taught our, our attorneys as well as me.

[00:02:16] Chris Ruzicka: So I’m work in progress. So again, it’s a compliment to be on a podcast with you, Steve. Yeah. 

[00:02:21] Steve Fretzin: Well, it’s, it’s always a great collaboration. And and we’re going to start off with our, with our our quote of the show. And this one is a Zig Ziglar and I, this is one I’ve heard for many years and I’ve always enjoyed that.

[00:02:33] Steve Fretzin: I’m not sure it’s been mentioned on the show. So I’m excited to share with everybody. These are the kind of gems that you just, you want to hear it twice, but you can have everything in life you want if you just help enough other people get what they want. I’m going to just read that one more time.

[00:02:47] Steve Fretzin: You can have everything in life that you want if you’ll just help enough other people get what they want. Zig Ziglar is awesome, man. So tell us why, why that quote, why is that near and dear to your heart? 

[00:02:57] Chris Ruzicka: You know, I almost 40 years ago, my first career was with Anheuser Busch and the theme was making friends was our business.

[00:03:04] Chris Ruzicka: It And that’s a motto I still hold true today. It’s really just making friends, building relationships. Although it seems obvious it, it’s worked for me throughout my career. So that’s why I really like that quote. 

[00:03:18] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. And, and Anheuser Busch got me quite hung over. How about that business? In college.

[00:03:22] Steve Fretzin: Holy mackerel. Yeah. Yeah. I made a lot of friends, but I also had some hangovers to, to share I love that because I think. We all we’re all into us, right? We’re all into it’s me. It’s it’s it’s me. It’s my game. It’s my my life It’s my this my that and sometimes when we’re so ego driven and in me focused we sometimes miss the idea That it is about client service it is about helping others it’s about giving back it’s about doing things that are gonna you know it’s like networking right right now we’re gonna get into that today but it’s like if you’re just a taker and you’re just out there to take and and sell people you’re gonna find yourself very lonely very quickly because all the.

[00:04:01] Steve Fretzin: Books and all, you know, that have been written on the subject, including legal business development is a rocket science and the attorney’s networking handbook available on Amazon, by the way all say how important it is to be a giver. And so I think that quote just sort of encapsulates that. 

[00:04:15] Chris Ruzicka: Yeah, I totally agree.

[00:04:16] Chris Ruzicka: And You know, like I said, it’s worked for me. I continues to work for my peers and others that I know. And you know, it’s not only brings you, it builds relationships, it makes you feel good that you’re a resource to people that you’re constantly giving and it always comes back one way or another.

[00:04:33] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Spot on. So everybody, Chris Rizica is the director of business development at Carmody McDonald, and you’re in a unique role. Most lawyers have heard about that there are non lawyers that work at law firms and that You know, do business development, law firms, but I haven’t had too many on the show.

[00:04:52] Steve Fretzin: And so I think you’re kind of a unicorn, which is important for you to come on the show and kind of share, you know, what you’re doing and why it’s beneficial to everybody. But give us a little bit of your background, Chris, so everyone knows how you came to be, obviously, Anheuser Busch being part of it.

[00:05:05] Steve Fretzin: Sure, 

[00:05:06] Chris Ruzicka: I was in business development and, and marketing and Anna’s approach and also with Sarah Lee. So big company, but then also now, what is Cushman Wakefield? I ran their corporate marketing. I mean, commercial real estate, the work with brokers, both in the sales as well as a marketing and business development capacity.

[00:05:23] Chris Ruzicka: But really, I will tell you, Steve, I had 8 years ago, the company had been with. Went bankrupt, and I had two recruiters from two different law firms call me. And one, quite a big law firm, and then our Carmody McDonald, which is a mid sized firm, about 60 attorneys. And I kept thinking, you know, I have two brothers in law attorneys, a sister in law attorney, but what would I do at a law firm?

[00:05:43] Chris Ruzicka: And they said, you know, they liked the fact that I had a strong marketing background, but what they really wanted me to do is be out there where sometimes attorneys couldn’t be. To be able to be the face of the firm, but also be able to coach our attorneys on both marketing and business development bring in referrals, and then provide education like I did bringing you in.

[00:06:03] Chris Ruzicka: So it’s been one of the best jobs I’ve had. People always ask me, gosh, you work at Anheuser Busch, you work at Sara Lee, you worked at an innovation, and now you’re working at a law firm. But I tell people it’s one of the most rewarding and exciting jobs I’ve had, and by far the most measurable job. I, I can tell you every day of the week how many referrals I bring in, brought in, and the dollars.

[00:06:22] Chris Ruzicka: And so that’s, that’s exciting for me. 

[00:06:24] Steve Fretzin: And why do you think it is that, that law firms don’t? I think to bring in someone that isn’t a lawyer to network and develop business and bring in, bring in the work and we rely solely on the Rainmaker or having the attorneys do it. Yeah, 

[00:06:39] Chris Ruzicka: I think that’s a great question.

[00:06:40] Chris Ruzicka: And a question I got when I came in, even from some of the attorneys that were interviewing us, especially attorneys who 40 years ago could not market their service, never had a business development person. And so what question, why do we need someone like you when I needed, I was successful without it.

[00:06:56] Chris Ruzicka: But today, as you know, it’s so much more competitive. You’re seeing not only CBA firms, financial advisors, but more and more law firms. I had a, actually yesterday, somebody approached me from another law firm, asking if I’d be interested in coming to their firm. So it, it really is something, as you know, that they can provide these attorneys Additional ammo, additional help, additional support to help not only recruit, but also to retain.

[00:07:23] Chris Ruzicka: So I know when they’re recruiting attorneys that they constantly are talking up that we now have a business development person going to help coach you, help you meet people and help bring in referrals. 

[00:07:34] Steve Fretzin: So it, it, it can be a game changer for firms that are more forward thinking, but what I really want to get into is you’re obviously become very good at business development and networking and, and I wanted to just have you share some of your experiences and some of your tips on how you do it effectively.

[00:07:51] Steve Fretzin: Kind of a fan of talking about, you know, pain points first, right? And then, then solution. So, Lawyers are notoriously bad at business development and one of the main skills that they need to learn and, and, and, and as fast as possible is networking and how to build relationships. Why do you see, or, I mean, not, you’re not going to talk about anybody specific, but you can think about attorneys that aren’t good at, at, at, at networking.

[00:08:14] Steve Fretzin: Why, why do you think that is? 

[00:08:16] Chris Ruzicka: You know, I’ll start by saying especially in the legal industry most attorneys I work with and also attorneys I know outside the firm don’t want to be considered as being too salesy. They, you know, there’s nothing against personal injury attorneys. We need personal injury attorneys, but their fear is that they want to be able to get the business through relationships.

[00:08:37] Chris Ruzicka: And so there’s always that concern that I come across too salesy. And so what I try to do is coach the attorneys. I push them, but I also make sure it’s comfortable and it’s how it works for them to be able to build relationships, be able to bring in business and reinforce that even though they’re working as an associate for a partner, it’s not necessarily true that they’re going to absorb all of those clients when that partner maybe retires, but also for some of our partners.

[00:09:04] Chris Ruzicka: Some of our partners know that at first they thought, oh, it’s great that we have a business development person for our younger attorneys. But then they start saying, you know two ads are better than one. And so they knew I could be brought in to help brainstorm on how to deal with a client or how to build a relationship with a client or how to get business.

[00:09:22] Chris Ruzicka: And what are the things 

[00:09:23] Steve Fretzin: that lawyers need to do to prepare to build business, to network, to go out there and actually start bringing in the dollars? 

[00:09:32] Chris Ruzicka: You know, I, I think first and foremost is, and, and to your point, some, it comes naturally to them, networking and, and building relationships is relatively easy, but not most.

[00:09:44] Chris Ruzicka: And so I think the most important thing is to be able to. Dark first with people that they feel comfortable with. And so do a little practice like anything else. It, it takes practice. All of us, including you and I had to practice before we, we continued to go out there and network. And so I, I, I always encourage our attorneys start small dark, maybe with a friend, everybody went to law school at one point or another.

[00:10:08] Chris Ruzicka: So maybe they go with their a former law student that they went to school with. And then maybe ask them to bring a friend. So first and foremost, I say, first start by practicing and maybe I encourage them maybe bring me. So I had one attorney one time he was relatively young and he and and I met with an individual that I was connecting him with.

[00:10:30] Chris Ruzicka: And I will tell you, Steve, on the way to the meeting, he was perspiring, all over. He was nervous. And so I calmed him down, talked about, let’s really first and foremost just build a relationship. Let’s talk about the Cardinals game tomorrow. Our, our, what are they doing for vacation this summer? Don’t necessarily have to talk about your value proposition, all the services we offer, where you went to law school.

[00:10:52] Chris Ruzicka: So, so my point is start by practicing, maybe bring along somebody else or, or start with somebody you feel comfortable with. And then leverage other people that, that do business development on a regular basis to help you. I would, I would just 

[00:11:07] Steve Fretzin: add the importance of really identifying your targets and I, you know, that’s a salesy word, but ultimately, if you’re just going out and meeting people for no reason at all, you’re going to find that, that it’s just the time suck.

[00:11:20] Steve Fretzin: So I think there’s good, good ways to practice with your friends. That’s a brilliant play and, and, and try to do things in a safe environment with people you know. And then ultimately, you know, you need to be directed to perspective clients and perspective strategic partners, people that are would be considered referral partners.

[00:11:39] Steve Fretzin: So if you, but if you’re not writing a plan or having a plan to follow, it’s like, you know, Hey, I want you to go from Chicago to Alaska and here’s a compass versus here’s a very high end GPS system and a really fun car to drive. Now go, right. You’re going to find it a much more enjoyable trip when you have a little bit of a plan.

[00:11:57] Steve Fretzin: Are there things that you suggest in planning to help attorneys be more efficient? Yeah, 

[00:12:03] Chris Ruzicka: that’s an excellent point. And I, I, I always encourage all of our attorneys. To build their center of influence, or I call it their entourage of CPAs, bankers, maybe other attorneys, financial advisors. Seldom I’ll have some pushback from attorneys that, ah, I don’t necessarily need a CPA myself, or I don’t want to, I already have a financial advisor.

[00:12:26] Chris Ruzicka: But I tell them that, hey, but that’s not the reason not to network with those people. Those people are out on a regular basis. And most everybody wants to get to those business owners and do work for businesses. Well, the best way to do that because business owners are not out there networking most of the time.

[00:12:41] Chris Ruzicka: They’re not available. They’re working on day to day. So, if you can build relationships with their trusted advisor, which could be other attorneys, could be CPAs, again, bankers, financial advisors, that’s one tip. Two is be prepared before you go to that networking event. And so, sometimes people are hesitant to use LinkedIn, so if you and I are meeting Steve, you know, of course I’m going to check your LinkedIn, see who mutually we may know what organizations, where you went to college but we have some, I find that some attorneys and people in general are like, oh wait, I don’t want Steve to know that I checked him out before I met with him.

[00:13:18] Chris Ruzicka: Look, Steve will appreciate that you did your homework before you came. And then find out what they do, where they’ve been, a little bit about their organization, and maybe who you mutually have in common, but definitely do your homework. But again, I encourage them to build an entourage, a center of influence of those that are trusted advisors or owners and obviously business owners themselves.

[00:13:42] Steve Fretzin: And I’ll just, I love everything you just said, the importance of research and preparation and planning, and then also maybe do things that you enjoy, I mean, meet with people that are at your church or your temple, meet with people that you play a sport with, or that you can take out golfing with you, like, if you can find things that you enjoy, Thanks so much.

[00:14:00] Steve Fretzin: Bye. And just learn about people and what their job is and, oh, this is a CPA and the CPA works with, you know, 50 manufacturers around the area and you would love to meet manufacturers. I mean, that relationship could really pan out. Meet, the other would be that you meet a CPA who doesn’t know anyone and never will.

[00:14:18] Steve Fretzin: Well, then maybe that’s somebody that you can play golf with, but there probably isn’t a next step other than maybe meeting someone else at their firm that does actually know someone. No people or work with, with, with companies that have relationships. So that would be another thing is just try to do things you like.

[00:14:32] Steve Fretzin: I play I play pickle and I play paddle and I play golf and I play these sports, but I’m always out meeting new people doing that. 

[00:14:39] Chris Ruzicka: Yeah. And I think you bring up a good point and I think it’s important then for the initial meeting, again, you find some mutual interest and maybe go out and do that, but sometimes you may start with just.

[00:14:50] Chris Ruzicka: A phone call or a zoom and then get to know the person a little further and then schedule a face to face. You know, the other thing I always encourage our attorneys to do is if, again, you’re meeting with somebody that you’ve already met with, but you want to stay in touch with them, the next time you meet, encourage them to bring one or two other people.

[00:15:09] Chris Ruzicka: So you’re, you’re building your network with somebody you feel comfortable with. And then again, you’re almost killing two birds with one stone. 

[00:15:16] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, 

[00:15:17] Chris Ruzicka: I love that. 

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[00:16:11] Steve Fretzin: com and apply for membership today. I want to talk about some networking do’s and don’ts. And again, not to go negative for the beginning, but you know, there are some things that you just shouldn’t do when you’re networking at an event or when you’re networking one on one. Why don’t we go back and forth and let’s just share a few of the don’ts things that just you really shouldn’t do.

[00:16:32] Chris Ruzicka: Yeah, great question. Years ago when I worked at Anheuser-Busch, my job at night was to go out and buy people beer . I’m shocked, and work the bar. And work the bar, and they’d give me sometimes up to $200 to introduce a new product. But now to really build a relationship, you know, you, you want to strive when you walk into especially in a bigger networking group to really not work the room, but to at least try to, I always say most people can only remember three things.

[00:16:58] Chris Ruzicka: So you have three goals and it may be to meet three people and build a little stronger relationship with those three, either at your table at the networking event. So I would say one thing I always encourage is. Even if you’re going to a big networking event, don’t feel the obligation to have to work the room.

[00:17:15] Chris Ruzicka: Really try to build two or three good relationships. And we’re typically there’s tables at those events. And so what we all make the mistake of doing is we wait until right before the presentation starts and we sit down at the table I always encourage people get to the table a little early, get to know those people at the table, even if you’re not sitting down so that you can take advantage of that.

[00:17:36] Chris Ruzicka: So you’re not during the presentation, yelling across the table. Hey, Steve, nice to meet you. What do you do? So first and foremost, I always tell people go a little early, go to the table early. Again, don’t work the room, try to build some strong relationships. And then I think what you and I talked about a little earlier is get people to talk about what they care about get them talking about their personal life.

[00:18:00] Chris Ruzicka: Where did they go to carnival? When did they go to the game? How many kids do they have? What did they do for vacation? Instead of just talking about your services, your, and about you. 

[00:18:09] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. So the two don’ts that you just shared, one is don’t work the room, find a couple of people and really focus on, on getting to know a few good, a few people well versus trying to meet everybody in, in one shot.

[00:18:23] Steve Fretzin: And then the second one is, it sounds like you want to ask questions and listen to people, let them do the talking. So don’t be the, don’t be talking over everybody and really focus on listening and understanding and hearing them and getting them to talk. Is that. Those are the two doubts. Exactly. 

[00:18:38] Chris Ruzicka: And then I, the other one I would really emphasize, I, I always encourage our attorneys to bring business cards.

[00:18:43] Chris Ruzicka: In this digital world, you think you don’t need a business card, but somebody at some point or another will ask you for a business card. But what I encourage them not to do is minute you sit at a table or you meet somebody, you bring out that business card. First get to know them, ask them their name. And then exchange business cards.

[00:19:01] Chris Ruzicka: The worst thing I ever see, I see on a regular basis is as soon as I sit down at a table, I feel like some people are playing poker. They’re, they’re just handing out the card. Deal. They’re dealing them out. They’re dealing them out. And so I really encourage people first. I’m used to the last one to bring up my business card at a table, because I want to first get to know the people and then that they’ll feel comfortable that I’m giving the card because we just talked.

[00:19:22] Chris Ruzicka: So I think that’s important. The other thing I know is especially for attorneys and CPAs as well is But people in general is when you’re at a networking event, and again, you want to build relationships with at least two or three people, Steve, you and I may run into each other at an event. We know each other.

[00:19:40] Chris Ruzicka: How do you politely get out of the conversation and be sincere about it? Instead of saying, I got to go to the bathroom, I got to get a drink and then you look over and I’m not getting a drink and I’m not going to the bathroom. So I always give people tips and tools on how to get out of a conversation and just I tell them just be honest, say, Hey, Steve, you and I, we can always catch up later.

[00:19:58] Chris Ruzicka: I want you to take advantage of this networking event. Go ahead and start move on or Steve, can I introduce you to somebody over here that I don’t think you’ve met? Then you introduce them to somebody and then at some point you let them take on, take the conversation and run with it. 

[00:20:13] Steve Fretzin: Doing a little, doing a little handoff there.

[00:20:15] Steve Fretzin: But. I think it’s, it’s, to be honest and say, you know, I promised myself when I came here today that I was going to meet at least three people and I’ve enjoyed speaking with you. I, I, I, you know, want to make sure I, you know, make, make, make good on my promise to myself, but really nice meeting with you and, you know, thank you for taking the time and you know, we’ll talk later, let’s keep in touch or something and move on.

[00:20:38] Steve Fretzin: The thing that I’m, so let’s move on to the things that we, we do want to do and that we, that do work and one that I’m going to give everybody real quick. I find to be so powerful is find someone at this event. If you’re new, that’s been there a while, they’re either running it or they’ve been there for 3, 4, 5 years, whatever the case is, they know everybody.

[00:20:55] Steve Fretzin: And build that relationship and let them know I’m looking to meet CPAs. I’m looking to meet lawyers in this area, whatever it might be. Would you be open to, you know, walking me around and introducing me to a few of those people? They may offer, but if they don’t, would you mind just introducing me one or two of those people?

[00:21:10] Steve Fretzin: Because that would really make You know, be great for me and I’d so appreciate it and they think you’re great at this point because you spent 15 minutes talking to them and then they walk you around the room and introduce you to the best people. Like that’s a great use of your time in an event and you’re not going to feel alone or feel like, you know, you got to wander around and like look people and I don’t want to talk to them.

[00:21:28] Steve Fretzin: I don’t want to talk to them. And you know, there’s that empty feeling you can have when in a large room with you holding a drink and not knowing who to talk to. 

[00:21:35] Chris Ruzicka: Yeah, I think that’s a great point. And it’s a valid point. I just did this last night. I was at an Association of Corporate Growth event, and an individual I knew who, he felt a little uncomfortable.

[00:21:45] Chris Ruzicka: He said, do you mind if I tag along with you? And it was, it was perfect for not only for him, but for me as well, because I’d enjoy introducing him. The other thing I tell people, you know, sometimes you walk into these networking meetings, and I tell our lawyers, even probably Steve and you, you and I, once in a while, you’re just not into it.

[00:22:01] Chris Ruzicka: You look around, you don’t really know anybody. So I always encourage people to do a couple things. One, if you see somebody else standing by themselves, walk over there. They’re there because they want to meet people and talk about building a relationship. They’re going to remember that forever. Two, is usually when you go to these big networking events, the people sitting at the table early on are there usually for the presentation.

[00:22:23] Chris Ruzicka: They may be the business owners. The ones that are trying to sell may be in the back. So sit down there. You don’t have to, again, work the room. You can go sit down. Those people that are sitting by themselves or one or two people will appreciate that. Otherwise, so if just like me, I’m an extrovert, networking comes easy.

[00:22:40] Chris Ruzicka: But some days. I’m just not into it, or I don’t see anybody I know. So then I’ll go sit down at a table. It’s a lot more comfortable for all 

[00:22:47] Steve Fretzin: of us. Yeah. So let’s move on to how do we actually get business from networking because it can be a tremendous time suck. I mean, number one, if you don’t, if you’re not properly trained or you haven’t read or listened or been coached and how to do it effectively and you’ll make mistakes and you’ll figure it out eventually, but it just takes time.

[00:23:08] Steve Fretzin: Ultimately, lawyers are frustrated with it because they’re not getting business. They are professional meters, or they’re just, you know, they’re just sick of going out and doing it because it’s not leading to anything substantial. So we want to talk about how they actually leverage it to get business.

[00:23:22] Steve Fretzin: And I’ve got a very simple formula that I want to share an idea I want to share, but I want to get your take first, Chris, before I chime in. So what, what would you say is the key to getting business in networking from 

[00:23:33] Chris Ruzicka: networking? At some point, you make an ask. And so the ask isn’t always asking for business.

[00:23:39] Chris Ruzicka: It may be what you said. Do you know some people here that I should be introduced to? It may be if you’re in my shoes what other events you would be going to? Networking events like this. So, so again, it’s making the ask. We all fail sometimes to forget. We get into a conversation with an individual at a networking event.

[00:23:59] Chris Ruzicka: And we forget to ask, Hey, are there other events like this? It seems like you come to this event a lot that I should go to other people to your point, Steve, that I should meet here. Or, you know, are there, if you were in my shoes knowing what I do now who would you suggest I meet with? What companies should I be targeting?

[00:24:16] Chris Ruzicka: What events should I be going to? But I’d say, secondly, is be clear on what your needs are. You know not everybody wants to meet everybody. So I have some people that introduce me to everybody and for me, that’s okay. But for most people, they have a targeted list of who they want to be referred to and who they potentially can get referrals from.

[00:24:37] Chris Ruzicka: So I always make sure that instead of just introducing everybody to everybody, give me a sense of who would be the best referrals or somebody you’d like to meet. 

[00:24:46] Steve Fretzin: And the discomfort with making an ask can sometimes happen when you haven’t made an offer. So if I know that Chris, that you’re interested in CPAs, and we’re talking, and we’re building a relationship, and I go, you know, I’ve got a really strong CPA, very business development, client centric that you should meet, the likelihood that you’re going to turn around and say, I so appreciate that, Steve, and who can I introduce you to?

[00:25:10] Steve Fretzin: It’s so natural then for them to want to reciprocate, for you to want to reciprocate. That it, then I just have to be a good coach in explaining who I want to meet or asking you to your point to help me with that process. But that’s, that’s sort of like, you know, that’s why giving that goes back to the beginning of this podcast, right?

[00:25:27] Steve Fretzin: That’s why giving is so important. Developing a network isn’t just about business. It’s developing relationships with a lot of different people so that you can move around the pieces on the chessboard. In an orderly fashion because if you don’t know anyone it makes it very hard to be a giver I don’t know anybody.

[00:25:42] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, in fact, i’ll tell you something funny chris When I started networking at the Northbrook Chamber in the Chicagoland area when I first opened my business, by the way, 20 years ago, coming up in October, I was just buying stuff from people, like that’s, I didn’t have anything to give, so I was like, oh, you do insurance, I need insurance, you’re selling pens and tchotchkes, I probably could use some of those.

[00:26:02] Steve Fretzin: Like that’s, I was just spending a fortune trying to like buy because I didn’t know, I had no one, nothing else to offer at the time. And then as soon as I started building my network and I could start putting pieces together to connect other people, then that all changed. That’s, you know, crazy. 

[00:26:19] Chris Ruzicka: Yeah, that you bring up a good point.

[00:26:21] Chris Ruzicka: I’ll never forget when I started this position D probably seven years ago I was at a networking event and as somebody that owned a big marketing firm in here in st Louis said hey, you should swing by and see my firm So I went met with the owner got a tour of his firm We’re sitting down talking and I was ready to leave because I knew it was a busy person He said wait a minute.

[00:26:42] Chris Ruzicka: Wait a minute He goes, one of the reasons I wanted to see you is my, my attorney that I’ve been using is retiring and I needed a new attorney. So shame on me. I forgot to ask, you know, and so I think it’s important after you, you, you get again entrenched in having a conversation and you forget to make that ask.

[00:27:01] Chris Ruzicka: And again, if you don’t feel comfortable in asking that Hey, do you have an attorney? It may be again, anybody else you suggest like you that helpful that could help me build my net network. Okay. You know, I, I think too is when it’s really important that when you get back from that networking event, it could be a one on one or a big group networking event.

[00:27:20] Chris Ruzicka: And you say to the individual, Steve, you and I, we need to touch base again. We need to stay connected. And sure, you go back to your desk and you may, for most people, they’ll link in and say, you know, looking forward to staying in touch and that’s it. But I think it’s important that you also have a plan to stay in touch on a regular basis.

[00:27:37] Chris Ruzicka: And so I tell everybody, I actually had one attorney says, Chris, he was one of our partners, you know, how do you stay organized? How do you keep up with these connections? And I said, well, what’s the 1 thing you look at every day? And he said, well, my calendar, my online calendar, so use that as a bring up system.

[00:27:53] Chris Ruzicka: So, if I meet you, Steve, at an event, and I want to stay connected. Three or four months from now. I put a little teaser on my a reminder on my calendar, contact Steve. When I reconnect with Steve, it’s not necessarily another meeting. And maybe, hey, Steve, there’s this Missouri Growth Association event coming up in a month.

[00:28:11] Chris Ruzicka: It’s probably one of the best networking events. Here, I’m sending you an invitation. You might be interested in going. Or I’m making an introduction. Or I’d say, hey, let’s go out and play golf by the time we just Zoom. So I think it’s important to stay connected. And I see. Attorneys, but people in general, that seems to be the hardest part is how do I stay connected, continue to build that relationship so that it does turn into business.

[00:28:34] Steve Fretzin: Well, yeah. And so the follow up is so critical, maybe not with everybody. So let me just say, if you meet someone that you consider an A player, could do business with you, could refer you a ton of business. Maybe on the back of their card when you walk away, you write the letter A, so that’s an A player.

[00:28:48] Steve Fretzin: That’s someone I need to meet with again soon and invite them to play golf. I need to do something. The B might be that middle of the road, need to continue to meet them and figure out if there’s a good fit. And then Caesars, kind of see you later and just don’t worry about it. Put them in your, connect on LinkedIn and forget about them because you just, you’ve done enough to know that there isn’t going to be anything there.

[00:29:07] Steve Fretzin: That’s, that’s really worthwhile or they just try to sell you or there’s just, there wasn’t a connectivity there, a sales rep for insurance that, you know, is going to be at a new job in a year or whatever. The other thing I want to share is, and I think this is in my networking handbook, Chris, the idea of thinking about yourself like a scout for a professional team.

[00:29:26] Steve Fretzin: Alright, you’re out in the field searching around for new business and new strategic partners, and Not everybody should be moved up to your professional team. So if I’m a recruiter, a scout for the Cubs, I don’t take someone off the field in a, in, in, in Deerfield, Illinois and throw them, you know, into the, to the, to the pros to play for the Cubs.

[00:29:47] Steve Fretzin: You have to bring them up slowly and test them out as you go. So the idea would be that you bring them up to them, to the, you know, just to test them out, maybe bring them up to the minors, see how they play ball. But if you’ve got someone that, that is a CPA, just as an example, And they’re giving right away.

[00:30:04] Steve Fretzin: They want to build a relationship with you mutually, and they produce something of value for you. You meet again, they do it again, they get it, and you keep moving them up. Now they’re starting, they’re on your starting lineup. Over time, and this is someone that could give you 5, 6, 7 leads, a new, new piece of business a year, that’s someone you’re going to want to keep on your starting lineup, and by the way, you have to add value for as well, and there’s other people that are going to commit to things and fail and just not follow through, those are people maybe you want to send down, so the idea, and at one point, Chris, just to share, I had a, I don’t do this anymore, but I had a cork board on my wall.

[00:30:40] Steve Fretzin: And it had business cards of 10 people. These are the 10 starting lineup, the financial planner, the CPA, the lawyer, all the people that could, you know, refer me and work with me because they worked with the entrepreneurs at the time I was working with. And when somebody failed and they just like weren’t following up, they weren’t responding to email.

[00:30:56] Steve Fretzin: Like I remember like ceremonially, like pulling their card off the cork board and then replacing that open spot with someone new. And it was just like, that was such a great mindset for understanding that there’s 10 people you’re going to have to spend a lot of time with. There’s probably 20 people you’re going to have to spend some time with.

[00:31:13] Steve Fretzin: And then everybody else, you know, maybe just keep in touch with on LinkedIn or newsletter or something like that. So anyway, I just want to put that out there, is a, is a as a way for people to think about recruiting for strategic relationships and partnerships because those are the people you want to spend most of your time with eventually and then you don’t have to spend hundreds of hours a year meeting new people all the time.

[00:31:35] Chris Ruzicka: Yeah, you bring up a great point about you know, A, B or C. I just this week I was at an event and a woman I met from Bank of America, she gave me her card and she also wrote on the card where we met and what our mutual connection was. 

[00:31:49] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. 

[00:31:49] Chris Ruzicka: So I said, what a great idea. So that now I have that card and it’s just not a name with a card.

[00:31:55] Chris Ruzicka: I’ll remember that we have a mutual connection and where we met. So I like that. But one of the, the key takeaways has always been for our attorneys and for me from your handbook, Steve, is the elevator speech, you know, as you know, that’s, it’s so important. So when you meet somebody, it’s not just, hi, how’s it going?

[00:32:12] Chris Ruzicka: What do you do? Oh, I’m an attorney. I’m in our litigation group. I, I constantly refer our attorneys to some of those talking points that help people have a really stronger opening statement. 

[00:32:24] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Just something that draws them in further to ask questions or, or see you differently than the dozen of other attorneys that they met that night.

[00:32:32] Steve Fretzin: So we’re going to wrap up on that point, Chris, amazing stuff. I mean, folks, so many takeaways between Chris and I that that’ll help you get further in networking than you currently are. Let’s talk about your game changing podcast. I think this is a good one. 

[00:32:44] Chris Ruzicka: Yeah, I, you know, really I, on a regular basis and I’m just not saying it, but you’re, cause you’re on the phone, especially because you’re a Cardinals fan and Cardinals aren’t doing so well.

[00:32:55] Chris Ruzicka: I on a regular basis, listen to your podcast and also look at your emails and refer back to your guide. Because, you know, I’m, again, only into this for seven or eight years. And so you bring a definitely a different perspective. You work with a lot more attorneys than I do. And so I, I, I really appreciate your podcast and some of the guests you have give a different perspective from where I’m coming from and definitely coming from different parts of the country, different types of legal services.

[00:33:24] Chris Ruzicka: So that, that, that’s great. Continues to help me grow professionally, but also be able to provide more benefits to our attorneys. 

[00:33:31] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Well, again, I’m, I’m very grateful for that, for that commentary, and I just loved having you on the show and I loved you know, having this back and forth to share our wisdom on networking best practices for all of you listening.

[00:33:42] Steve Fretzin: Want to wrap up thanking our sponsors, of course, Rankings. io, getting you found on Google and all those search channels. And of course, the Rainmakers Roundtable, everybody, this is an opportunity for Rainmakers and managing partner Rainmakers to collaborate with other very high functioning, growth minded attorneys in a confidential environment.

[00:34:03] Steve Fretzin: If that’s your thing, or if you’re, you know, working for a Rainmaker and you want to introduce me, I’d love to meet with that individual to talk about the value of being in a peer advisor group, solving problems, and, and Providing solutions to one another the answers are there. It’s just a matter of, of getting off your island and participating in a group.

[00:34:21] Steve Fretzin: Chris, if people want to get in touch with you, they want to either learn more about you, they want to do business with you network with you, what are the best digits? 

[00:34:28] Chris Ruzicka: Yeah, I’m on LinkedIn Chris Rezeka, St. Louis, Missouri at Carmody McDonald LinkedIn. I would also say my number is 314 854 4222.

[00:34:38] Chris Ruzicka: 8 6 3 0 3 1 4 8 5 4 8 6 3 0. Or you can find me on our website, carmodymcdonald. com in St. Louis, Missouri. 

[00:34:47] Steve Fretzin: Awesome. Well, I appreciate you as a friend. I appreciate you coming on the show and sharing your wisdom and let’s let’s keep, keep, keep it rolling moving forward. Okay. Thanks, Steve. Appreciate the opportunity.

[00:34:57] Steve Fretzin: Absolutely. And thank you everybody for spending time with Chris and I today on the Be That Lawyer with Brettson Helping you to be confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker. Take care everybody. Be safe. Be well. We’ll talk again soon.

[00:35:13] Narrator: Thanks for listening to Be That Loyal, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website Fretzin. com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes.