Russell Knight: Building and Scaling a Law Firm by Investing in Your Team

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Russell Knight discuss:

• Challenges and strategies in scaling a legal practice
• Balancing professional and personal commitments effectively
• Building and retaining talent within a growing law firm
• The role of firm culture and external development in professional success

Key Takeaways:

• Hiring experienced professionals, even at a higher cost, provides stability and reduces the training needs of fresh graduates who require more supervision.
• Ongoing recruitment through social media and outreach ensures a steady talent pipeline, allowing potential hires to learn about the firm’s culture before joining.
• Investing in external development programs, like trial advocacy courses, enhances lawyers’ skills, strengthens loyalty, and shows the firm’s commitment to their growth.
• Hosting team-building events, such as farm-to-table dinners or concert outings, fosters culture, encourages cohesion, and attracts top talent.

“Stop being cheap. That dollar isn’t your dollar; it’s the firm’s dollar, and it needs to get spent on people that aren’t you.” —  Russell Knight

Got a challenge growing your law practice? Email me at steve@fretzin.com with your toughest question, and I’ll answer it live on the show—anonymously, just using your first name!

Thank you to our Sponsors!

Rankings.io: https://rankings.io/

Rainmakers Roundtable: https://www.fretzin.com/lawyer-coaching-and-training/peer-advisory-groups/

Episode References: 

Unreasonable Hospitality: The Remarkable Power of Giving People More Than They Expect by Will Guidara: https://www.amazon.com/Unreasonable-Hospitality-Remarkable-Giving-People/dp/0593418573

About Russell Knight: Russell Knight is an experienced divorce and family law attorney with offices in Chicago and Naples. He has authored over 700 articles and contributed to legal publications, including the Illinois Institute for Continuing Legal Education. Frequently quoted by NBC News and Newsweek, Russell offers expert guidance on divorce, contracts, litigation, and equity issues. Fluent in English, French, and Spanish, he provides strategic support to clients navigating complex family law matters.

Connect with Russell Knight:  

Website: https://rdklegal.com/

Email: russelldknight@gmail.com

Personal LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/russell-d-knight/

Company LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/law-office-of-russell-d-knight/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/LawOfficeofRussellDKnight

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/divorceattorneyknight/

Connect with Steve Fretzin:

LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

Instagram: @fretzinsteve

Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.

Website: Fretzin.com

Email: Steve@Fretzin.com

Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!

YouTube: Steve Fretzin

Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Steve Fretzin: [00:00:00] Hey everybody, before we get to the interview, we want to take a moment to just do our question and answer of the show. This is from Greta in Des Moines, Iowa, and she asks, what is the key to planning for the new year? Yes, we’re entering into a new year. It’s already begun and it is time to write a plan.

And most people freak out about it and don’t really want to do it. Some firms require it but whether you’re on your own or with a firm, again, I’d really recommend writing a plan. And so this is going to include understanding who your targets are, what your strengths are maybe do an audit of what you, what, where you got business last year to understand where it’s coming from and lean into those resources further.

But again, it’s going to be a one to three page plan, objective strategies, tactics, and just from, from big picture down to the minute details of. How you’re going to spend your day and your week to actually drive it forward. For more information on this, I’m happy to have a one on one and talk to you about planning.

You can email me at steve at Fretzin. com. And also listen to our shows, read the books. I mean, there’s a lot of content that’s going to help you plan for 2025. [00:01:00] So hopefully that’s helpful. Thank you, Greta, and enjoy the show, everybody.

Narrator: You’re listening to Be That Lawyer. Life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author, and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.

Steve Fretzin: Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Be That Lawyer podcast. I am your host, Steve Fretzin. If you are listening for the first time, welcome. If you are a long time listener, I think we’re, I don’t know, 475 shows in, and if you’ve been picking up on all those, you’re probably the smartest guy around because we do nothing but educate you on being the best lawyer, marketing, business development, time management, scaling, you name it, we’ve got guests that have covered those grounds, and today I’ve got one of my favorite lawyers and friends, Russell, how you doing, man?

Russell Knight: I’m very good. [00:02:00] Thanks.

Steve Fretzin: We’ve had, you know, I just, before we even get into the show, I just want to mention how impressed I am, not only with what you’ve done business wise, but even more importantly, how much time you spend with your boys. I’m kind of stalking you on Facebook and I just observe you’re at a concert.

You know, I think we both went to Pearl Jam and I see you doing all these activities with your kids. And I just want to tell you, yeah. That not everybody gets to do that. And or has the ability or the flexibility to do that. So kudos to you on that. What, why is that? I mean, obviously that’s important to what’s your motivator.

They’re obviously loving

Russell Knight: quality time versus quantity time. I don’t want to be like, I’m not watching a TV show with my kids. It’s Saturday night and I can go to Pearl jam and like one of them’s into music. That’s

Steve Fretzin: Yeah, right. So there’s quality time and you’re making the best of it. Really cool. So everybody as you guys know, we love to start off with a quote of the show and this one’s a doozy and I love the author of this.

So one bad Apple ruins the whole bunch. That’s an old timey type of saying. And then the person that you quoted is saying that as some Apple guy, [00:03:00] somebody who was into apples and then notice that there was a spoiled one that ruined the whole bunch. So, but why specifically that quote versus all the other coats and quotes and welcome to the show, by the way.

Russell Knight: Yeah, you know, I’ve, last time I was before you talking with you on podcast, it was like 2021 maybe, and I had like one associate and two paralegals, and now I’m at six associates and four paralegals. And I’ve you know, most everyone’s great that I have right now, but I’ve definitely found that like the people.

Work and follow the cues of the person that’s doing the least for the most part. One of the advantages of working remote is that person who’s doing the least is in front and center, but also it’s a challenge because the person is doing the most is in front and center. And so then you have to rely on a lot of data to follow up with people.

But like, I don’t know if it’s your business, like, why are you tolerating? Mediocrity. Why are you tolerating something that’s bad? It’s just going to seep into everything. And then we all know other firms that are like that, where it’s like, well, that’s how they do things. It’s kind [00:04:00] of screwed up. I’m sure nobody wanted it to be screwed up, but it just slowly developed like a cancer kind of,

Steve Fretzin: yeah, I think sometimes it’s hard to, you know, changes harder.

Like there’s people that they, even though you’re not happy with them, they’re still handling some level of work. And then what we’re going to talk about today, maybe a good segue, not right this minute, but Is, you know, it is so hard to get new talent today that maybe it’s better putting up with, you know, a donkey than going out and trying to, you know, put the effort in to find a thoroughbred as, as my friend Ross Alper says.

So that may be a part of it. But again, I think as we’re going to talk and find out that it ends up being a big misstep and mistake, but let’s take a step back. So you mentioned a little bit about your firm and the growth you’ve had take us back to, you know, as far back as you want to go about why you became a lawyer and kind of give us leading up to today.

Russell Knight: Sure. I was a computer programmer and it was not very good. So I realized I had to do something else. And so I was good at tests. So I took the LSAT. I thought law school would be fun. Then I graduated with great timing in 2006 when the economy was going down the toilet. I worked for a guy on the West side of Chicago doing criminal [00:05:00] work and running around.

And then I ended up doing all the divorce work for the firm. And then subsequent to that, I left two years later, started my own firm was doing divorce work. And all sorts of things. And I also like, I speak fluent Spanish. And so I was working with that community and then I just more and more divorces come in and like laws, kind of a pie eating contest where first prize is more pie.

And the pie that I was eating was divorce.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah, nice. So you push your chips in and you’re someone who has multiple offices. And by the way, everybody, Russell Knight is the law office of Russell Knight. And you have Chicago and you have Naples, Florida, and I always found that interesting to have two offices.

Is that because you wanted the lifestyle of living down in Naples?

Russell Knight: At the time, yeah. I was like planning on living down there. Then the pandemic happened, and then I, as you mentioned, I have kids, and the education in the northern suburbs of Chicago cannot be beat, and so I moved back for education purposes.

And I don’t know, I’m just like, I’m kind of from here, so I like it.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah. And for, you know, nothing, you know, again, people in [00:06:00] Florida, but I know they’re having some tough times with all the storms coming through and flood insurance and all the reasons that making Chicago sound so not so cold anymore, if you will.

So let’s talk a little bit. I mean, I mean, I want the, there’s a lot of lawyers who are solos that are so terrified of that first hired paralegal or associate, and there’s people that have one or two associates and that step to grow. is such a big deal. And why do you find that, that lawyers generally struggle with that step and finding good talent from the get go?

Russell Knight: I think it’s like, and you got to think of it from like the possible associate or the paralegals perspective. Like they know they’re going to get a check. They know that and they don’t, they’re not an automaton. It’s like, well, this person pays more 10, 000 more than that. They want a lot of security in one solo.

With nobody else, that doesn’t seem very secure. And even one solo with one associate, one paralegal, which is usually what people. Get to even that doesn’t seem that secure. I was called at the, like, it’s not really a firm. It’s like, it’s a Batman and [00:07:00] Robin sidekick sort of situation. So what my experience was is that I always had paralegals like 1 or 2 and then they’d be like, kids were also like law clerks effectively.

Then I had 1 associate and that was okay, but it was just like a sidekick to be honest. And I didn’t start making, to be honest, real money until I had a 2nd associate. My experience is that Once you have the second associate, you won, you’re not, you’re really just achieving the scale economies of scale where you can make some real money.

And you’re not just constantly mentoring someone and losing out on your own billable hours. And then once you have more than one or two people, The third or the fourth or the fifth person is like, Oh, okay. Well, that’s a stable place to work. They can keep lights on and keep everybody paid. And they’re probably right.

So my experience, like I definitely had one person’s tell me like, Oh, I didn’t know you had all these people working for you because you didn’t have them on your website. And I realized how dumb that was in my about page that I didn’t have headshots of everybody and their bios [00:08:00] to, they could see that it’s just not me and some rag tag crew.

It’s, you know, six other people that are significant experience.

Steve Fretzin: You’re showing that this is a real firm and not just a solo operation.

Russell Knight: Yeah. That’s, that’s it. I mean, people know, especially like do clients know, I don’t know, but people who work in the industry, they absolutely know and they want to work for a place every time.

Steve Fretzin: Okay. And in your opinion, then, is it better to try to find someone that has experience doing and bringing in that person with potentially their Sure. different processes and systems and ideas about things, or is it better to take someone that maybe has very little experience, bring them in and mentor them up and get them on your page right away?

Which do you learn? Do you like both?

Russell Knight: Oh boy, that’s a tough one. I’ve hired people out of school. I probably would not do it again. It’s a learning curve as a lawyer. I’m in family law, which is not rocket science. It takes about two years to achieve the proper level of independence where you’re not doing check ins a couple of times a day.[00:09:00]

And that’s time that I lose. And frankly, like, The management science says that you can only manage about, you know, four to six people and I’m at 10. So that definitely can’t do that. So people who have experience, that’s fine. And lawyers are expected to know how to do things and do things their own way.

We have a whole bunch of systems and processes about how to do anything from calendaring whenever people have to work together, like calendaring or putting stuff into, dropbox and how you organize the file. We’re very strict about that. But like, that’s not rocket science either. So this long story is the short story is I would rather hire somebody with experience.

What’s the big deal to pay somebody 10, more when they have, you know, two, five, 10 years experience. And they’re effectively independent. Again, you’re buying into stability. So if you can pay them for that level of independence, if they’re buying into your stability, I found that to be, it’s usually where you want to be.

But again, like beggars can’t be choosers. When you’re a solo, you’re probably going to have to take somebody right out of school

Steve Fretzin: and [00:10:00] you’re

Russell Knight: going to have to spend two hours of your day. You hope, we’re hoping this person was going to free up two hours of your day, but now you’re spending two hours of your day telling them how to do something, reviewing their work.

I don’t know. I kind of think that laws It’s a great business when you’ve got, you know, five plus people and it’s tough from one through four.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Well, I mean, look, I mean, from the show, you know, in my own knowledge, I mean, there’s a lot of different ways to skin the cat. The idea too, is if you can bring in software and technology and processes, or maybe bring in a second lawyer who does enjoy the management has the time, maybe they’re not into business development.

Maybe that those are things that might like, I don’t know if you could go back in time and do it again or those things that you would have, have, or maybe you had those. I don’t know.

Russell Knight: I have, do have a few people like that where they enjoy working with others and fostering their growth. They have one young lady, Rebecca Day, who was a paralegal for 15 years and has been And then went to law school and she’s effectively in charge of [00:11:00] all the paralegals and she runs it like a, like a business.

It’s like a tight, tight as a drum. These paralegals are working with her and working for her and they all follow the rules and that solves a million problems for me and I pay her proportionately because it solves problems. And then we’re trying to do something similar for. To get lawyers on the same page, but lawyers need a lot more flexibility.

So I’m not sure if that’s totally the direction I want to go. And I don’t know, I’m probably at a weird cusp stage here with, like, a staff of 10, because you’re probably right as a staff of 15 or 20. If I get there, I’d probably have to be purely into leadership and business development. And these other things would have to.

Be shifted off to other people.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah. I think that’s the big move is like, how many hats are you wearing Russell? And at what point do you take, start taking them off and handing them out? Like, you know, having someone in charge of your staff or having someone that, you know, stop doing the work. Like there’s a lot of people I interview on the show that, you know, they get out of the billable work and they just focus on the [00:12:00] business and focus on the rainmaking.

And then everyone else kind of takes their role. A question I want to ask you is experience with recruiters. That’s a touchy point for a lot of lawyers. Some have had. I

Russell Knight: don’t think they’re expensive, although it sounds like, you know, 20, 000 to hire somebody like, so what, like, what’s 20, 000 for an attorney?

Like that’s just do the math. That’s like 40 hours of work at like however many dollars an hour it’s one week. Like so what usually they should be charging. I think in other businesses, they charge like. The first several months, maybe the first year, even so, I don’t think that they’re expensive. My only caveat would be is the type of person and I can talk about how I hire, but the type of person who’s works for recruiter the potential hire is probably kind of bouncy that they were looking for the next thing before they met you.

They’ll probably be looking for the next thing. After they’re working for you.

Steve Fretzin: So,

Russell Knight: but whatever, nothing lasts forever. That’s what I tell everybody. [00:13:00]

Steve Fretzin: Yeah. I mean, there’s shelf life to how long most attorneys are going to work at a particular firm and be opportunistic. And, and again, I think that’s something we want to yeah, if we can keep and build a culture and make them happy and they’re, they’ve got, you know, all the things that they need and want, but.

You know, that’s doesn’t change the fact that people move on. And, you know, I’ve had multiple changes in my career and so have you. So that’s just life. The question that I want to ask you then is what have you learned and how are you now acquiring top talent? How are you getting to the point where you’ve got six attorneys from, you know, originally one or two?

What’s been your process for that?

Russell Knight: Well, initially I would like put an ad on like law school whatever those hiring websites. Yeah. Yeah. Like the bar

Steve Fretzin: associations. Yeah. Yeah. Law school.

Russell Knight: But now I’m like really online. And I’m like, I’m constantly, I pay social media people so that I’m constantly on LinkedIn.

I’m constantly on Instagram. And I, everything that the firm does, I put on the LinkedIn or Facebook and then people. Like I know some people probably interested in working with me, like [00:14:00] they’ll like the posts, like it’s not, it’s pretty transparent. And then you have a conversation with them. You say like, well, how’s it going?

And it’s never going good. They’re either in like some horrible firm or they are on their own and they’re drowning. And you say like, it’s hard. I’d say just what I told you, like, it sucks. You can’t get out of it step by step because one hiring one paralegal hiring one associate doesn’t solve your problems.

It just buys you new problems. And then until you’re at, like, five or six, it’s just more problems and then they’re like, oh, yeah, but like, no one can imagine themselves going from like, I certainly couldn’t from like, one to two to like, five to six. It sort of seems insurmountable. And then you ask him like, well, what do you make?

And like, maybe if you made the same amount, but I found you the paralegal and like, I got you most of the cases. Would you, would that be an improvement in life or not? And they’re not going to say, yes, hire me. They’re going to wait for, until they have a very good, no, very terrible, no good, very bad day.

And then they’re going to call you up and say like, maybe we can talk about that

Steve Fretzin: and then

Russell Knight: they’re [00:15:00] going to be ready. So the people that are good that you’d want to have work for you, they’re not ready to, you can’t expect them to work for you tomorrow. It’s going to happen in three to six months or maybe a year and just keep it open.

I would be like, Super friendly with people and let them see that like, you have like a modicum of success. We do one really cool thing every quarter at my firm and we put it on, you know, Facebook and LinkedIn and it blows up because other people aren’t doing it. Other firms are like, Oh, we got pizza for the break room.

Like I, for the fall, we did a farm to table dinner at a farm and it was beautiful. It was so cool for winter. We’re all going to Naples as like a Yeah, for spring. I plan on like renting this entire suite for a concert. And putting stuff up like that shows people like we are having fun, we’re successful, and maybe it would be kind of cool if you were with us too.

So I hope that was the message, [00:16:00] Ross.

Steve Fretzin: Well, I want to tell you that I’ve done, as I mentioned, like 475 shows and there’s been, you know, five to 10 things that have been said. That are so important and brilliant that needs to be restated. And what you just said is so critical, not, not just the culture part.

I want it to go back before that law firms aren’t thinking about recruiting openly and all the time as a part of our function of growth as a part and function, like they have hours that they need to fill. Then they start recruiting and they use a recruiter or whatever, and they fill it. You’re suggesting recruiting should happen all the time.

You should be putting up posts. You should be starting conversations. It’s not something that is done here and there. It’s done as a part of the growth plan for the business in general. And I think that’s a big missing piece for a lot of big firms, small firms, and mid market firms. So just want to just make sure everyone understands that your website, your LinkedIn, getting conversations with lawyers that you think might be a good fit for your firm, that could be [00:17:00] more important than actually going out and getting business.

Because going out and getting business is great, but you need people to do that work. And so, that ongoing recruiting piece is critical. With proven SEO and digital marketing strategies that drive actual clients to your firm, Rankings. io prides itself on proof, not promises mentality. The best firms hire Rankings.

io when they want rankings, traffic, and cases. Other law firm marketing agencies can’t deliver. Get more rankings, get cases, and schedule a free consultation at Rankings. io today. Hey everybody, Steve Fretzin here. Man, I thought I was a good marketer, but maybe not. Lawyers have been approaching me asking, What’s the Rainmakers Roundtable?

Well, I tell them this is a special place created exclusively for rainmaking lawyers to continue their journey of prosperity. Our program is unique as every member has access to it. a significant book of business and is motivated to grow it year after year. Where else does this exist? If you’re a managing partner who’s looking to get off your lonely island and talk shop [00:18:00] with America’s top rainmakers, please go to my website, bretson.

com and apply for membership today. And so then you mentioned the culture and the retain, what other things are you doing to develop and retain people? So even though you know they may leave down the road, at least. You’re going to have goodwill, maybe they’ll send you stuff, but more importantly, you’re hoping that you can work them to stay long term.

Russell Knight: Well, what I don’t understand is why almost nobody does any development that is not in house. It’s out of house. For example for family law attorneys, like family law attorneys are notoriously bad litigators because the rules get bent all the time. There is a organization called the National Family Law Trial Institute.

It NFL TI out of Houston, Texas, and they do a week long trial, trial advocacy class. That is minimum like 14 hours a day. And they’re not nice. They yell at you. It’s fun. And I’ve sent two attorneys there and they’re not thrilled to do it. No one would do it voluntarily. It just wouldn’t happen. But I’m like, [00:19:00] guess what?

You’re going to them. They came back. We’re like, whoa, I am like so much better. And I see the forest from the trees. And now I have an idea of like what I’m doing and why I’m doing it and my strategy so much better. And that is something that I know for a fact, like other firms don’t do it. It costs about 10, 000.

You lose at least another 10, 000 for them not billing that week. But it’s something, it’s just an investment in their career that I think is one, it’s easier than trying to teach them trial skills yourself. And two, it’s like a big vote of confidence in them. Like, I believe that these people that I’m sending are not only good lawyers, but can be really great lawyers that they, you know, think that they, I hope they notice that vote of confidence and sort of interpret that at the culture and be like, no, this is a place where we do really good work.

And my boss believes in me. And I’ve, you know, and I’ve, and he invests in me and I presume he’ll invest me in, in the future. That, and like, there’s a million things. Like if you’re in any kind of litigation, need a, you can send your associate to Miami to [00:20:00] take a deposition class and then they can, you know, hang out on the beach the day before the day after.

Like, I don’t know why nobody would do that. It’s not especially expensive. It’s really nice. And like, Most people will walk away from it having learned something. And again, it was probably more important as the signal that it’s a vote of confidence in their potential more than anybody. But I just don’t see a lot of people doing that to be honest.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Yeah. It’s well, I think what you’re saying is like, you’re investing in people in their future and that plays a role in the culture that you’re developing in not only how you met them and build trust, but how you bring them in and train them. And then making sure that you’re. Investing in them and then also from a social and cultural standpoint and from an advocacy for them to grow as lawyers.

So you’re kind of covering a lot of ground there. Anything else that like if you had to give, you know, tips to lawyers who were solos like to say, Hey, this is how you get from here to from where you are now to where I am, what would you say?

Russell Knight: Stop being cheap. Okay. [00:21:00] That’s the number one thing that I think you see a dollar come in and you’re like, Oh, wouldn’t that dollar be nice to be having my pocket?

That dollar ain’t your dollar. That dollar is the firm’s dollar. And that dollar needs to get spent on people. And it’s tough because, like, when you really start making money, you’re like, oh, man, the gross numbers are huge. But the bigger you get, the smaller the margins get. And I think it’s tough to turn down the green eyed monster and be like, well, shouldn’t I have all this?

No, spend it on your staff. Spend it on some kind of development. Buy somebody 200 worth of flowers for their birthday that’s on your staff. You know, little things like that, like just quit being cheap.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah. I mean, I find that in my space too, Russell, with lawyers who, you know, look, my fees are a drop in the bucket for lawyers that are building million dollar plus books after working with me.

And I still feel like lawyers really struggle investing in themselves or investing in building something. They just want to take the money and, you know, [00:22:00] use it or spend it or whatever. It’s pretty unusual.

Russell Knight: That’s the nature of it. You know, being a lawyer, like you have to focus a lot on being a lawyer and you don’t focus a lot of being a business person.

Yeah. And that’s, that’s the other thing. I think people get stuck in like an intellectual Eddie where they’re like, well, I learned all the rules of evidence. And so now I’m done. No, you’re not. Now you have to learn how to hire, retain, talk to people like you to learn how to build business. It never ends.

Yeah,

Steve Fretzin: I think that’s that you’re making some great points. It’s like the business of law. It’s something that you have to learn. It’s something that you have to recognize. There’s an investment in learning and executing and finding good talent. And I think a lot of what you shared today gives people, you know, hope that there’s, there are ways of doing things where maybe they don’t make the same mistakes that were, you know, have been made by solos for years.

Let’s wrap it up with our game changing book of the show and that’s unreasonable hospitality I want to say that’s been brought up on the show before but yeah,

Russell Knight: I hope so. It’s amazing So we are in the professional services business Services we are of its [00:23:00] services guy. Will we die? I think his last name is he Writes the story of how we work for all these restaurants and manage these restaurants and how people walk into the restaurant They’re like, oh, I’m here to get a steak and a glass of wine and then I’m gonna leave You Anything beyond that is a gigantic bonus.

So people walk into my office and they’re like, well, I’m in this horrible situation. I hopefully I have a divorce and I don’t have too much trauma associated with it, but anything else, it’s a bonus. So we do we try to be really empathetic throughout the whole process to really touch base. To I always tell people, I’m so sorry going through this, all of that.

But then at the end, for example, if I like you, I like most of my clients and I will send them like a gift basket at the end. I’m like, Hey, it’s probably an hour’s worth of work that, you know, expense, but just say like, I know you’re moving on to the next chapter of your life. I hope that it’s great. I hope things go well.

And people respond to it because the rest of the process is terrible. Like if you ever meet somebody who’s been divorced and you ask them, who’s your divorce lawyer, they will have one of two answers. [00:24:00] Typically. I don’t remember. Can you believe it? They just like, yeah, here’s that guy. Or number two is all, I hated him or I hated her.

It was an awful time. So why can’t you do something like buy somebody some flowers if you hear like something? Because we hear about a lot of tragedy. Like, you know, we hear their parent dies or something. Why can’t you buy somebody some flowers? Deliver it. Why can’t you get them something? Why can’t you send a note on personal stationery with your name on it to say, Hey, I hope everything’s well like that.

It was a pleasure helping you. But the idea is that yeah. Unreasonable hospitality isn’t a checklist. It’s a vibe, a way of life, and the more it’s a way to build a culture, actually, but in professional services, I think it’s you’ll see it everywhere if you start going to like nice hotels or nice restaurants and because it’s sort of the universe winking at you.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah. I had that experience in a Truelux in Naples. I remember very clearly I was, I asked where the washroom is. And someone said, Oh, let me show you. And they walked me to the washroom, which I’m like, that’s never happened before. And I didn’t eat. And then they went in the bathroom with me and I’m just [00:25:00] kidding.

They didn’t do that. And that made a really good service now, but it, but the point is like, it’s the little things that we can do beyond what expectations are that are memorable and where people are going to want to recommend you and refer you. And I think my late great, Father Larry Lawyer did that very well and built a huge reputation for himself as being, you know, consigliere beyond just someone who provided legal services.

So, great book and thank you for that, Cher. As we wrap up, wanna take a moment to thank our sponsors, of course, LawHer Podcast. Check out Sonja on that show. It’s amazing helping women to really take it to the next level as legal practitioners. And of course, rankings IO, which is in the personal injury space, helping people attract and get business in the door.

Russell, if people want to get in touch with you, they want to work for you. They want to talk with you. They want to network with you. What are the best digits for them to reach out?

Russell Knight: I’m super online. Just find my, websites and there’s always a contact me page, or you can email me at russellatrdklegal.

com. [00:26:00] That’d be great.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Awesome. Well, thanks man. I appreciate it. And you know, you’re in one of my round tables. I don’t know if you want to just share. I’m putting on the spot totally right now by doing this, but just like, what’s the value of being in a room full of other rainmakers?

Russell Knight: You meet people that you wouldn’t meet otherwise.

And then like when I have a question, I will now, we’ll always go to one of the other gentlemen in the round table because he seems to know everybody. And I’ve also like, it’s five people. If you’re a lawyer, someone is going to refer you business. Like it’s happened to me. You get your money back at the very least.

Yeah.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah.

Russell Knight: So.

Steve Fretzin: Thanks, man. I appreciate it. So check out the rainmaker round table on my website, Fretzin and. com. Everybody you’re doing a million plus, and you want to network and hang out with other rainmakers. Check it out. Thanks so much, man. This is our, I think that this is our second show together. So you’re a two timer, if you know what I mean, but you know, just sharing your wisdom is always great.

And you’ve built a lovely practice. And I love the fact that you’re able to build something super profitable and also again, have the balance of, you Spending time with the family. That’s really important.

Russell Knight: All right. Thanks. Nice seeing you. Have a nice [00:27:00] day.

Steve Fretzin: All right. Thanks. And thank you everybody for spending time with Russell and I today on the Be That Lawyer with Fredson podcast.

Have a great day, everybody. Be safe. Be well. We’ll talk again soon.

Narrator: Thanks for listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website, Fretzinon. com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes.