Dennis Meador: Winning at Marketing and Personal Branding Beyond the Billable Hour

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Dennis Meador discuss:

• How lawyers can market themselves effectively in an increasingly competitive industry
• The role of personal branding in helping attorneys differentiate themselves from competitors
• Why podcasting is a valuable tool for business development and client acquisition
• Adapting to changing trends in SEO, social media, and content marketing

Key Takeaways:

• Most potential clients check out a lawyer’s website before making contact, so their online presence should authentically reflect who they are and how they can help.
• Lawyers should avoid “random acts of marketing” and instead build a cohesive strategy centered around their ideal client profile, jurisdictional realities, and brand identity.
• Podcasting is not about going viral; it’s about targeting the right audience—50 engaged listeners in a lawyer’s market are more valuable than 50,000 global views with no conversion potential.
• The best marketing doesn’t just tell potential clients what a lawyer does; it shows how and why they do it differently, using real-world examples and insights that make them the obvious choice.

“We’re not trying to get you to be the foremost American divorce lawyer—we want you to be Chicagoland’s high-net-worth or father-focused divorce lawyer… or one that focuses on the men’s side. And when you become that—now you’re owning your market, and it’s a huge benefit to you.” —  Dennis Meador

Got a challenge growing your law practice? Email me at steve@fretzin.com with your toughest question, and I’ll answer it live on the show—anonymously, just using your first name!

Thank you to our Sponsors!

Rankings.io: https://rankings.io/

Rainmakers Roundtable: https://www.fretzin.com/lawyer-coaching-and-training/peer-advisory-groups/

Episode References: 

Office Ladies Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/office-ladies/id1480311435

About Dennis Meador: Dennis Meador is the CEO and Founder of The Legal Podcast Network, dedicated to providing turnkey podcasting solutions for professionals, particularly attorneys. With over 20 years of experience in legal marketing, he is passionate about helping attorneys engage more clients and establish authority in their practice areas. An entrepreneur since 14, he has built multiple businesses and successfully scaled companies to multi-million-dollar revenues. Based in Austin, TX, he enjoys traveling, snorkeling, and making BBQ on his smoker—The Notorious P.I.T.—while spending time with his wife and three grown children.

Connect with Dennis Meador: 

Website: http://www.thelegalpodcastnetwork.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dennismeador/ & https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-legal-podcast-network/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100053762623075 & https://www.facebook.com/legalpodcastnetwork.lawyers/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/diem.today/ & https://www.instagram.com/lpnlegalpodcastnetwork/

Connect with Steve Fretzin:

LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

Instagram: @fretzinsteve

Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.

Website: Fretzin.com

Email: Steve@Fretzin.com

Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!

YouTube: Steve Fretzin

Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Steve Fretzin: [00:00:00] Hey, everybody, before we get to the show, we’ve got a call from Mansoor of Saudi Arabia. I do have a few Saudi clients, which I think is really cool. Loving the international stuff, but here’s the question. I’m on your YouTube channel. There’s a lot of content there. How should I take it all in? Fantastic.

I would say either to go into some of the channels that I have within my YouTube channel, there’s going to be specific videos. You can also do searching. So if you’re interested in networking, you could type the word in networking. If you want it to be on how to get in front of decision makers or sales, free selling or whatever you type in the words, it’ll pull up the ones that are best related to that.

I think that might be the way to go. And again, you’ll also notice that if you do it by timing, there’s going to be a lot more stuff about the podcast in the last couple of years. Then if you go back a ways and don’t go back too far, cause you’ll see me without a beard and see me as a man child. And I don’t like that.

But anyway, enjoy the YouTube channel. I hope it helps you. It helps everybody else. If you haven’t been on it yet, go to Steve Fretzin on YouTube and you will find it. And I know there’s a lot of great content there. Thank you for the question, man. Sour and enjoy the show. Everybody[00:01:00]

Narrator: you’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.

Steve Fretzin: Hey everybody, it’s Steve Fretzin and welcome back to the show that gives you what every lawyer wants, which is how to grow a book of business, how to personal brand, and that is Be That Lawyer with Fretzin. We are so excited to be here twice a week and now on Above the Law, so you can check us out there as a cool attachment to our show.

And also, I’m writing for Above the Law and I’m writing for Attorney at Law magazine, so you’ve got lots and lots of content and ways to find me and what I’m trying to teach lawyers every single day about how to live their best lawyer life and grow their books of business and take control of their careers and all that fun stuff.

And as [00:02:00] you all know, I love to bring on interesting guests that are going to help to give you, the longest runway of how to build your career and be successful and personal branding and marketing and business development, all that fun stuff. And I, today’s no different. I got Dennis waiting in the wings.

How’s it going, Dennis? Very good. All right, man. Good to see you, and good to have you on board here. Let’s start off with your quote of the show, and I am a big Bruce Lee fan. I grew up with him in the 70s and watched all his movies, and obviously he’s done, there’s been a number of documentaries and movies about his life and everything, and I just continue to be impressed by this guy on a number of levels, and let’s go through that quote.

It’s, to hell with circumstances, I create opportunities. So welcome to the show, and tell us why that quote of the show is your favorite.

Dennis Meador: First of all, thanks for having me on. I think, we’ve connected on LinkedIn and started like eyeing each other up, does a good relationship, is this going to, guy going to come along and which I think we all do on LinkedIn.

We get on there, we make these relationships and it’s do they walk in the door with their hand out? And what can you do for me? Or is there, is a reciprocal value? [00:03:00] And hopefully I can bring as much value as you’ve already brought to me. The quote with Bruce Lee, I think that, it’s a pretty self explanatory quote.

I think some people wait around for things to happen, right? They wait for the right set of circumstances. They wait for this thing to happen or that thing to happen. And the truth is there is no such thing as right circumstances. You just have to create opportunities. Motion creates emotion, creates energy.

And so that’s how I’ve always been, I’ve been one of those people that. I take responsibility for the failures, but I also fight for the wins. And so that’s my desktop quote. I just leave it there and just.

Steve Fretzin: Wonderful. That’s always front and center. I talk to my clients pretty regularly and I do this myself and try to tell them, Hey, look, you have a really good meeting.

Let’s learn from it and let’s see how we can expand it and close the deal and build a relationship. Let’s say you have a really bad meeting. Let’s say that, it ends up not going any way that you thought it was going to go. What can we learn from that? How can we take that as an [00:04:00] opportunity to learn and opportunity to improve?

And make yourself stronger, better. And that’s one of the reasons, like with my teenager and with the Gen Z’s and some of the kids that are growing up, it’s like they need to have circumstances and they need to have problems and barriers because otherwise, how do you thicken the skin? How do you get out there and hustle when things are tough and you can’t just have the bulldozer and I’m going to going down and down a path here.

But the point is just continue to learn and take challenges. That you can see as opportunities.

Dennis Meador: Absolutely. I won’t get it too much of my life story, but I’ve definitely had some opportunities to grow and learn throughout my life. And that’s what I’ve looked at it as is it’s just if I hadn’t had this time in my life where sure, as I went through it, it was very tough, but.

Now it’s made me, it’s given me the ability to A, B, C, D, look around and look at circumstances and see what’s going on and move without fear and, tackle whatever comes in front of me or whatever. And speaking of Gen Z, I have three of them that are out into the world.

A 20, I [00:05:00] guess he’ll be 25 this month. 23 this summer, and then a 19-year-old, and I had some, yeah. Hard lessons as that Gen X that wanted to give his kids everything he didn’t get or that I had to go out and get myself, I guess I should say. And I handed those to my kids, even in the start of life and seeing how I had to allow them to make their own mistakes and allow them to fail without being the backup plan.

And it created a bit of friction for about a year with my kids, but they came back later and said, I see what you’re doing now and thank you for it because otherwise I’d still be waiting around depending on you to take care of me.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah, no, right on everybody. Dennis Metter is the CEO and founder of the legal podcast network and also DM marketing.

And so you mentioned some challenges in coming up and eventually getting into marketing and legal. Give us a little bit of that background. So we understand that some of the challenges and some of the things you’ve overcome in your life to get to where you are today.

Dennis Meador: [00:06:00] Sure. My parents divorced when I was eight and they went opposite directions.

People have asked me like, what would your. You had to write a life story. What would the title of your book be? And it would be a daddy’s a preacher. Mama’s a prostitute. And that’s literally what happened. Like they went to polar directions. So for about five years, I lived in a situation where my mom was dating, heroin dealers, crack dealers, drug leaders, drive by shootings were happening at our house. This is like in the late eighties into the early nineties when the the gang culture was pretty predominant. We had a lot of people coming out of Chicago. So I had that time of my life.

And then, even then I moved in with my dad, but, there were six kids now and poor, so I went off and I went to a free college that my dad found for me. That was unaccredited. It was like Institute. And I got into selling and got into marketing to businesses because that’s where money was.

So I took a telemarketing job and the people who were making the most money were the ones selling ads and magazines. So I went over to [00:07:00] that and I started selling ads and magazines and making really good money at 18, 19 years old. And never looked back. Got into advertising, marketing. Tried, I was in paper for a while until the, till about early 2000.

And then early 2000s, and then I went into digital and the first people that moved digital were personal injury attorneys. So 2003, I started selling personal injury attorneys on like a legal match type of situation way back when it was a small competitor. And that’s how I got into it.

And I learned that I like working with attorneys. I like not having to manipulate and appeal to emotions and all the things that you read about in the sales processes, I always found with attorneys, I could just be brutally honest with them. And as long as I said it with like sincerity and logic and stood behind what I was saying, they respected me for it.

And they would say, that makes sense. Okay, let’s work together. Being able to do that from [00:08:00] the very beginning, that’s how I got into working with attorneys all these years ago. And, I’ve had entrepreneurial journeys ever since.

Steve Fretzin: Wow. That’s really interesting. And I don’t think anybody was expecting that kind of a background.

But that’s life. Everybody’s coming from a different place and a different level of craziness and what they’ve been through. And so it’s part of what allows us to develop into who we become. I think we have to have. And sometimes we look back and we were mad at our past because we had to go through that.

But I think, you come out the other side stronger and that’s what I would love to, and continue to teach my teenager. If a lover, he’ll come around to, I keep telling my wife. He’s 18 years old, he’s ADHD. I think emotionally he’s probably closer to 15 or 16 and, we’re just going to have to be patient.

He’s going to come around and say, dad, everything you told me when I was a kid, I should have listened to whatever, but I’m not sitting around waiting for it every day, but I know of eventually this kid’s smart. He’s going to come around and appreciate that his parents, care about him and the fact that we make his life a little difficult is, that’s part of it.

Dennis Meador: I think the key for me [00:09:00] in able, in order to be able to read, build that bridge with my own kids, when I had to financially cut them off after I’d given them two or three good starts, it wasn’t like I just like me. When I was, I turned 18 on Wednesday, I graduated high school on Friday. On Sunday, I was dropped off at that Bible college with 20 and a start to life.

That’s how I started life. My son, I paid, his bills for six months, got him a 70, 000 a year job. You know what I mean? Hooked him up with people that I knew to get him a nice place to live. I did that two different times where I I helped him along and both times he ended up back on his mom’s couch with a job, with a part time job at a, as a barista or something, but now here he is 24, 25 years old top notch SDR in each company that he’s been in.

And now trying to go to that next level of an AE and saying, okay, dad, I know, you’re people here because I lived in Austin, Texas for quite a while. That’s where my company’s based out of. I don’t live there anymore. I actually live on an island in Belize. [00:10:00] But he’s I know I could learn from you.

So he’s come back and we have that like camaraderie and relationship.

Steve Fretzin: And for the folks out there who don’t have teenagers, I’m not going to apologize for having this conversation because you maybe you’ve got young kids and eventually they’ll be teenagers and, see what Dennis and I have been through and how we come out the other side.

But I think it’s just, it’s generally a good thing to, to just bring up on occasion on the show, but let’s transition to. Kind of the one main topic, which is marketing. Obviously that’s something you’ve been in for a long time and the big challenge that lawyers have is that they’re so busy billing hours and they’re so busy running firms and doing all these things and wearing all these hats that marketing sometimes gets pushed down and they don’t do it.

Or maybe they just outsource it to someone who, there’s how many, legal marketing companies out there that are not really. Doing a great job. So how should lawyers be thinking about marketing from the top down? I think first and foremost,

Dennis Meador: the realization that there is a commoditization of their industry, that it’s no longer the premier industry that it used to [00:11:00] be.

It’s not the unquestionable industry that it used to be like, no one goes, they they’re sending me to this specialist for my knee. Let me just Google all the other special knee specialists and just let me read the reviews and let me call them and ask them their rates.

No one does that. People didn’t use to do that with attorneys, but now they do. Now they’re like, oh, I need a lawyer. Let me look. Oh look whatever, divorce lawyer, Austin, and they’ll look it up and there’s just this. Laundry list of attorneys. And then I guess the directories are starting to hit back up again on search results, especially in AI.

So you got a directory with like fine law or AVO or whoever. And it’s just like, how do you go from being another guy with a couple of letters next to his name, a number of years next to that. And then their specialty to the person who people want to work with because of who they are and of what they know.

And I think that’s really the key is to get away from the over commoditization of their industry right now. [00:12:00] That the points of differentiation, a way of really putting themselves and separating themselves.

Steve Fretzin: Okay, so let’s run with that because I love what you’re saying. If you’re just one of a million fish in the ocean it’s like, how are you separating yourself?

And I think that’s a very challenging thing for lawyers to do. What would be an example of someone that you’ve either helped or seen that has been able to do that in his or her particular area? I

Dennis Meador: mean, we see it often because, that’s what we specialize in is, creating like thought leadership.

Yeah. Differentiation sort of marketing and almost every attorney. And it’s really up until the pandemic, every attorney would say if I could just get them across for me, I know that I’ll get their business. They all say that. And so it was like, okay, that’s fine. But here’s the reality.

80 percent of people check out your website before they ever visit you. The getting them across from you is now done before they ever call you before they ever show up. And so you have to, in your marketing, in what you’re doing, take who you are [00:13:00] offline. And reflect that online instead of just, oh, I have a nice logo and a nice looking website.

And then, I’ve got my about me page. It says I went to this school and I won this contest. It’s people don’t care that you won some sort of like a fake mock trial. 28 years ago. Like they want to know like what you’re doing now that they want to know that, what’s going on right now in society.

They want to know that you understand their specific challenges. And that’s what content marketing positioning marketing with us, we use podcasts for that podcasting for that. That’s what that does is it allows you to take who you are offline and reflected online, and when you can do that, then you have no one to blame, but yourself, whether or not you’re successful, because now you can’t say it’s the marketing, it’s this, it’s no, hold on.

Your marketing reflects who you are. So either you’re not being presented in the best light or you’re not, you’re not communicating effectively what you need to get [00:14:00] across.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah.

Dennis Meador: So I think it’s a shared responsibility.

Steve Fretzin: Okay. And I think it’s tough for lawyers to see what makes them different or understand what makes them different or special in their space.

And they do feel like they’re just one of a million fish in the ocean or whatever it might be. And one thing I’ve been talking to them about is. Think about what you’re really great at doing and think about what you enjoy. And maybe talk to a few clients about what they think about you and why they continue to use you and why they think you’re special, better, different, unique, and see if you can put it all together to come up with some sort of overarching theme.

You can then market around because I think what they’re doing right now is what’s called in the industry, right? Random acts of marketing. I’ll do social media post here. I’ll do a video there. I’ll throw an article up there and I’ll hope that all these little things that I do will eventually help me.

Build a brand. And I don’t think it’s enough. I don’t think it’s the right approach.

Dennis Meador: No, it, there has to be a [00:15:00] like, okay, what is the message? And I think it also, to take that one step beyond reflecting who you are is reflecting who your ICP, your ideal client profile is. And that’s how we build everything.

So like when we bring on a client, we have an onboarding meeting. And part of that onboarding meeting is, What is your ideal client profile? What is your jurisdictional profile? What is your brand profile? Like how do these three things meet together? Cause you can say my ideal client is billionaires who are getting divorces, but then it’s okay, in your jurisdictional profile, how many billionaires got divorced last year?

None. Okay. So then you’re let’s rebuild that, it’s got to match your jurisdictional profile as well. And understanding who your client is, because then you can build towards the issues that they have, right? I always like to use two examples. Like one example I’ll give is like a criminal defense attorney who will be like I don’t know what I bring to the table.

I’m I’ve done this 30 years, but what’s one difference between me and the next guy? We could probably plead them down to [00:16:00] this or whatever. I said let me ask you a question. Let me say, I come to you and I have, a third DUI. And so I’m looking at probably maybe a felony or some sort of major, whatever fee fines and maybe whatever.

I said, would I get the exact same result if I hired? 10 attorneys in the market. And he’s no. And I said what would change the results? For example, for me, I know that in this particular county, that if I can get you in front of this particular judge. He has two kids that had three DUIs that were, that one got treated harshly and then one didn’t or whatever, so I know to get you in front of this particular judge.

I also know that this particular judge you never want to be in on front of on a Monday because every Monday he hates life because he has to be back in the office. So I always try to get in like on a Wednesday or Thursday where he’s not trying to slide out the door, but he’s settled into the week.

Okay, so that’s your competitive advantage. That makes you different is you understand your jurisdiction. You understand the right [00:17:00] judge. You understand the right, the prosecutors, you understand. So that’s your secret sauce. But people don’t know that by looking at your website, it says you went to such and such law school 30 years ago, you want to mock trial.

Oh, view eyes. I could do that. Oh, felonies. I can do that. Just like every other website. I call it a Mr. Miss every attorney site. It’s just this generic website that says I do that and you need to go beyond I do that too. Here’s how I do that and here’s why I do it differently.

Steve Fretzin: I love that. And ultimately, once you figure that out, how does that impact the decisions you make on how and where to market yourself for, to get the most in the right business?

Dennis Meador: Absolutely. I’m like at that point, I think we’re becoming to the point where everything’s so integrated and things like that. If you know what you’re doing, you can be fairly outlet agnostic is what I call it. It’s not about Oh, I’m going to just invest in, in LinkedIn, or I’m just going to be on Facebook.

[00:18:00] Like literally, like you can hook everything up and you can reach each outlet. But that being said, taking those people and building what we, at least what we do with ours is within our team, Tracy, who’s our content director. She’s been writing content FAQ cause we do all QA sort of podcasts.

So it’s seven to 10 questions, 17 to 21 minutes, one specific subject that we cover. And so she’s been doing this for 10 years, she’s been doing, she did SEO content for lawyers, book content for lawyers, and now podcast content with lawyers. And I’ve worked with her for seven of those 10. And so she knows oh, this is who your client is? Here’s what the questions are. Again, the second illustration I’ll give is in with a divorce lawyer. Like a divorce lawyer, you want to just show up for divorce lawyer, or if your ideal client is a high net worth individual, then why not answer questions like, what happens to a second home during a divorce?

Things like that. Because that’s an indicator of a higher net worth [00:19:00] individual. And you’re answering their specific question, not just the generic, what happens to my communal property during a divorce, but a very specific question. Now they’re feeling as if you’re speaking directly to them and you’ve obviously helped other people with their situation.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah. What do I do with my yacht?

Dennis Meador: Exactly.

Steve Fretzin: Q& A.

Dennis Meador: Exactly.

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Get more rankings. Get cases. And schedule a free consultation at Rankings. io today. Hey everybody, Steve Fretzin here. Man, I thought I was a good marketer, but maybe not. Lawyers have been approaching me asking, what’s the Rainmakers Roundtable? I tell them this is a special place created exclusively for rainmaking lawyers to continue their journey of prosperity.

Our program is unique as every member has [00:20:00] a significant book of business and is motivated to grow it year after year. Where else does this exist? If you’re a managing partner who’s looking to get off your lonely island and talk shop business, with America’s top rate makers. Please go to my website, Fretzin.

com and apply for membership today. All right. Very good. Let’s transition to a piece of the marketing world that you and I are both very passionate about podcasting. It’s a concern for attorneys that thinking about podcasting, but they might say, am I in it too late? There’s already a million podcasts.

I’m just going to be another one of these podcasts that no one’s going to listen to. And they’re going into it potentially with that attitude. Why is that the wrong attitude?

Dennis Meador: A few reasons, but I’ll say first and foremost, for every one podcast, there’s 8, 000 blocks. So we’re nowhere near saturation over saturation.

And I think just as the internet got smaller, it got bigger. It’s going to be the same thing with podcasting. People are going to realize, especially in where. The [00:21:00] payout isn’t eyeballs, it’s clients. So as an attorney, I always use the illustration. Let me ask you, would you rather have 50, 000 views of your podcast, but they’re in Indonesia, they’re in the Australia, they’re in Mississippi, and you’re in Chicago, nobody’s going to call you, nobody’s going to become your client out of this, but you can say I had 50, 000 views or 50, 000 listens to my podcast, or would you rather have 50 people listen to it?

that are in your market, 10 of them call you and 5 of them hire you. Which one is of more value, of value to you? Podcasting becomes micro podcasting. What we try to do is basically say, listen, we’re not trying to get you to be the foremost American divorce lawyer. We want you to be Chicagoland’s high net worth or Chicagoland’s father or divorce lawyer that focuses on the men’s side.

And when you can become that, now you’re owning your market. And now it’s a huge benefit to you. No, I always tell people, no, one’s [00:22:00] going to subscribe to your podcast and listen to every episode. What they’re going to do is they’re going to find the episode that has to do with them and their issues.

They’re going to listen to it. Then they’re going to go and they’re going to check out your YouTube channel. Maybe watch a couple of other things, maybe download another episode that has to do with their situation. Then they’re going to go to your website and they’re going to see the FAQ and the videos that are on there, and then they’re going to call you and they’re going to say, instead of how much does it cost, they’re going to say.

How much would it cost me to be able to work with you? And that’s a very different statement. And that’s a very different positioning. Most attorneys, and I talk to them all the time. I say, how many calls do you get like this? How much is your rates? What does it cost? What, how often is that the first thing?

And they’re just like, Oh, and you can just hear it right away. They’re just like, Oh, all the time. It pisses me off. That’s not your client. Don’t you? Yeah, probably not, but I still. Every, I got to still go through the little hoops because every once in a while I still get a client said, okay, so if you were to reposition yourself where you were getting calls saying, okay, I’ve [00:23:00] been, I saw your pod, I listened to your podcast, I’ve been on your YouTube page, I’ve spent time on your site, I see that you focus on guys like me.

I see that you help people just like me. How much is it going to cost me to be able to work with you? Would you rather have calls like that? Heck yeah. Yeah. So that’s the focus that we try to help them. Use podcasting for is to drill down, not cast a wide net and get a thousand dollar check from YouTube every month, but drill down and get, some good solid calls that fit their ideal client profile.

Steve Fretzin: And I think the other piece of it is that there are a lot of podcasts, but not everybody has the persistence to stay with it, right? So there’s all these people starting podcasts that get 10 and 15 and 20 in and then quit. And I think that’s going to really limit the number of podcasts that actually make it and are, have the longevity and the stamina to continue to draw in the audience or to draw in, their listenership.

Dennis Meador: Absolutely. And the other thing is like for us, to [00:24:00] us, like podcasting is a means to an end for our attorneys. Yes, podcasting in and of itself can get clients, but then we take that and we, we take transcript and we edit it and we create FAQ content for their website, and then we create little videos and, shorts and reels.

And we place it on all the different social media outlets. And then we can, now we’re getting ready to start creating audiograms and do the same thing. So it’s like taking just a little bit of their time, half hour of their time. And with a half hour of their time, we can create a podcast, put it on 30 different outlets, create 20 different types of posts, and every weekday, every business day, they’ve got content going out, and all they did is spend a half hour of their time.

And that’s a big advantage we see for the attorneys as well.

Steve Fretzin: And that’s the dirty little secret that lawyers may not understand is that there are people like you that Assist in getting it started and coming up with a theme and really working to get it done. And then, repurpose all the [00:25:00] different pieces of it so that it’s all out there.

And people think, for example, because I do two a week that I’m like, Hey, is that must be your full time job? This is my full time job. It’s not, I have a full time job, it’s working directly with lawyers on business development and growth. This is, I’ll do two, maybe three in a day. And that’s like a big day for me, but.

Typically, it’s a couple of week that I’m doing to keep up with the two week that I’m putting out. And that’s an hour a week, maybe an hour and a half because I do a little pre interview to, select the topic and all that, like you and I met ahead of time and all that. But ultimately you think about how much content is being created and how that can generate so much traction in building a brand.

I don’t think there’s a better tool. I think you just need to flesh it out with an expert. You probably better than me. I’ve helped probably 10 or 15 lawyers get into podcasting it. They’re loving

Dennis Meador: it. We have about a hundred doing podcasts with us right now. And we’re coming on, we were, we’re coming on a year launching this [00:26:00] program.

So we’ve grown and grown. That’s been our biggest thing. It went from, I tell people, we went from spreadsheets to monday. com to now we’re moving into ClickUp and. We went from me with a couple of two, three people, and now we’re looking for our 32nd and 33rd higher on the team with, with most, like I have two salespeople, so that’s not like a huge sales organization with a backend trying to work.

It’s we’ve got full time social media people, full time, I’ve got seven people that just make shorts full time, for my clients. So it’s definitely like the ability to multiply the time that they give. That’s the biggest, I think, helper and it’s custom content, right? Custom content on a continual basis.

It keeps people on the page. We’ll always kill it in the algorithm. So we’re feeding the algorithm for them. We’re feeding YouTube for them. Which, helps with the algorithm. So there’s so many things that we’re doing between the YouTube videos, between the social videos, between the website content, between everything else, that it’s one of those things that it just has such a [00:27:00] cumulative, I like to call it.

One drop becomes a waterfall, right? As it builds.

Steve Fretzin: And here’s the final thing we’ll say about podcasts, and then we got to wrap up the show. But it’s, there’s a marketing perspective, which you and I just spoke about for, a little bit here. The other side of it is the business development perspective.

The fact that you might be interviewing GCs, you might be interviewing CEOs, you might be having conversations with strategic partners who have direct ability to work with you or refer you. And you’re building this network, not on, Hey, I want to sell you something you should meet with me. It’s, Hey, I’m going to give you some free publicity or promotion.

We’re going to have a conversation and we’re going to get to know each other in that format. And then the follow up to that is, continued value that you’re adding for them. And the fact that they might say to you, it’s so interesting what you do, Dennis, you’re someone that I might want to work with.

I’ve always thought about doing a podcast. And now all of a sudden I’ve turned into a prospective client. So there’s that business development side and the marketing side really working hand in hand, which I don’t think people really [00:28:00] understand how valuable that can be.

Dennis Meador: Absolutely. And we do it two different ways.

So obviously there’s, so we provide hosts and we provide the questions and we make the, so I call it guardrails with collaborative opportunity, right? So our guardrail process is. We come up with the questions. We send you the questions. Our hosts ask you the questions. You answer the questions. It’s your show.

It’s your branding. It’s your channels. It’s a, you own everything. But we have attorneys that are like what if I want to interview people? Not a problem. We’re more than happy to take care of all of that. We’ll remove the host or the host can ask the two of you and if you’re not as comfortable, they can ask you and them together.

And so we’ve had attorneys that have come on with typically would be their guests, almost as a co guest with them. And then they’ve almost seemed like they’re on a team together, building camaraderie. And then some of them went on to the other side and ask the questions. To their guests as well.

And we’re open to either way, but certainly building that relationship, if you say, Hey, would you [00:29:00] like, are you, can you give me a half hour for a demo? People are like, ah, busy. But if you’re like, Hey, would you like to be on my podcast? That’s a very different response. People will usually be like, when is it?

Yeah, let’s do it. So I certainly see that.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah, guesting on podcasts has become, it’s a business. It used to be PR people were out to try to get you, into Forbes or get you into different publications. And now it’s a lot. I’m getting five to ten. solicitations a week from podcast promoters who are trying to get lawyers and other folks on my show, which I think is a sign of success, but also it’s demonstrating, how the kind of the world has changed and how important podcasts can be for expansion of brands more so than traditional magazines or things like that.

Hey, Dennis, we got to wrap up. Let’s talk about your game changing podcast, which is called the office ladies. And those are, for those of you who love the show, the office, I think this is maybe one to pick up. So yeah,

Dennis Meador: I was off and on podcasts for years, and then The Office ladies drew me back in to be like, really [00:30:00] definitely into podcasting again.

Love The Office, probably watched it six or seven times. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard this phrase, but The Office is the only show where people won’t ask you, have you watched the podcast? They say, do you watch the podcast? Or The Office. And so people who watch the office. They don’t stop watching it.

They just watch it and watch it. So definitely one of those people. That being said, I came across, it was called, and it was right in the beginning when it had come out a few years back. The office ladies, Jenna Fisher, who plays Pam and then Angela Kinsey, who plays Angela on the show.

They’re doing a rewatch together. They’re going through seasons, episode by episode, season by season. They give you a lot of behind the scenes. They bring people on just all the way they had, like one person was like, that worked the sandwich cart at one time, because it was like, they were like, we had the greatest snacks and then if I remember this correctly, but they like talked about all the food and all the stuff and had that person on.

So it just, it really like opens it up for you really enjoy that. So it allows me to now [00:31:00] I’ll watch the office. And I’ll be able to be like, Oh, I know what just happened in the background. Cause they’ll talk where people break and like how they had to pan away with the camera and things like that.

So you get all this, like behind the scenes sort of understanding of the context of everything. And it, I really enjoy it.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah. One of the greatest shows of all time. Let’s wrap up with we thank our wonderful sponsors. If you haven’t heard the LawHer Podcast with Sonia Palmer, you’re going to want to check that out.

That’s a really good one. And then also, of course, we want to thank Rankings. io and our friend Chris Dreyer over at PymCon coming up in October, if you want to sign up for that. Hey, Dennis, if people want to reach out, they want to check into you to either understand more about how you help them with marketing and podcasting, what are the best ways for them to reach you?

Dennis Meador: Obviously LinkedIn Dennis, D E N I S, Metter, like a meadow, but with an R on the end instead of a W, M E A D O R, and then easiest, thelegalpodcastnetwork. com. If you think of the Ohio State University, thelegalpodcastnetwork. com, [00:32:00] we’ve got samples on there, we’re actually getting ready to launch version 2.

0. We’re about to go from, basically when we originally started, we were doing three pieces of content per episode. We’re now getting to the point where we’re going to be putting out on our second level, 30 pieces of content. Ooh, wow. So just to give you the growth. And so we’re getting ready for that.

I just want that product that just kills it for lawyers and then go deep, do super well, keep building out our systems. And then we’re going to go wide, start adding in other professions of, other verticals, but right now I know lawyers, I love lawyers. I’ve worked with them long enough, had a bunch of great conversations and continue to plan on doing that for years to come.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Dennis, thanks for coming on and sharing your wisdom. I think this was a great opportunity for lawyers listening to this show to get 3, 4, 5, 6 takeaways, whether it’s how to, make a teenager’s life easier, more difficult as opposed to easier, or it’s about how to market yourself, brand yourself and get involved in podcasting.

All really good stuff. So thanks again for being on the show.

Dennis Meador: Absolutely. Thanks for having [00:33:00] me. Enjoyed it.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah. And thank you everybody for hanging out with Dennis and I today on Be That Lawyer. We are here for your listening pleasure to help you be that lawyer, confident, organized and a skilled rainmaker.

Take care everybody. Be safe. Be well. We will talk again soon.

Narrator: Thanks for listening to Be That Lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website Fretzin. com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show.