Kyle Harbaugh: Fixing the Hiring Crisis in Law Firms with Smarter Strategies

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Kyle Harbaugh discuss:

• Challenges in law firm business operations
• The importance of business strategy in law firms
• Hiring and leadership in law firms
• Leveraging AI and technology for growth

Key Takeaways:

• Many attorneys excel in legal practice but struggle with business management because law school does not prepare them for running a firm, resulting in inefficiencies and unnecessary stress.
• Most law firms lack a clearly defined and well-communicated vision, leading to misalignment within their teams and making it harder to attract and retain the right talent.
• Hiring mistakes often stem from relying too much on gut instinct instead of structured assessments and long-term goal alignment, which leads to high turnover and poor culture fit.
• AI-driven tools can help law firms make smarter business decisions by identifying growth opportunities and ensuring new hires align with the firm’s culture and objectives.

“Just because they are very successful in one role, it doesn’t mean they’re going to be successful when you elevate them.” —  Kyle Harbaugh
Got a challenge growing your law practice? Email me at steve@fretzin.com with your toughest question, and I’ll answer it live on the show—anonymously, just using your first name!
Thank you to our Sponsors!

Rankings.io: https://rankings.io/

Rainmakers Roundtable: https://www.fretzin.com/lawyer-coaching-and-training/peer-advisory-groups/
Episode References: 

The Game with Alex Hormozi: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-game-with-alex-hormozi/id1254720112

$100M Offers by Alex Hormozi: https://www.amazon.com/100M-Offers-People-Stupid-Saying/dp/1737475731
About Kyle Harbaugh: Kyle Harbaugh is the co-founder of Chief GO Officers, LLC, a business consulting firm specializing in law firm growth, operations, and organizational development. With 14+ years of experience, he focuses on management, business planning, and coaching to help firms scale while improving efficiency and client satisfaction. His approach integrates business intelligence, automation, and AI tools like STEP Ai and Right Hire Ai. Offering group and 1:1 coaching, fractional implementation, and strategic growth systems, Kyle helps law firms optimize profitability, branding, and client acquisition for predictable revenue and leadership excellence.
Connect with Kyle Harbaugh:  

Website: https://www.chiefgoofficers.com/

Email: KyleH@ChiefGoOfficers.com

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kyle-harbaugh-chief-go-officers/ & https://www.linkedin.com/company/chief-go-officers-llc

Connect with Steve Fretzin:

LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

Instagram: @fretzinsteve

Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.

Website: Fretzin.com

Email: Steve@Fretzin.com

Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!

YouTube: Steve Fretzin

Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Audio production by  Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Steve Fretzin: [00:00:00] Hey, everybody, before we get to the show, it is once again, the time to do the Q and a, this is Donald from Miami beach, Florida. And he’s asking, I run a small law firm and I’m being solicited all the time by marketing agencies. I know my marketing sucks. Nice stuff. Nice share there. But should I meet with these vendors?

I’m not saying no, but i’m saying do your research make sure that they’re credible go on their website. See if their website’s any good see if they do work with law firms, maybe even law firms, But I think the best thing to do is to talk to the most successful people that you know in your space, legal space or in personal injury or in a certain area and see who they’re using and how they’re happy they are.

I think personal validation from people that you know that are happy using certain vendors is going to save you a lot of time and energy because they’re soliciting you. Because they don’t have the repeat business and the referral business that some of the better vendors have. So they got a cold call.

So I would say try that and hopefully that’s helpful to you and everyone else, Donald, and enjoy the show, everybody. We got a good one for you coming up.[00:01:00]

Narrator: You’re listening to Be That Lawyer. Life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author, and lawyer coach, Steve Britson, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now. Here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.

Steve Fretzin: Hey everybody. It’s Steve Fretzin and welcome back to the Be That Lawyer podcast. We have just wrapped up five years, Kyle, of this podcast, and we’ve done almost 500 shows. And it’s super exciting because I get to meet some of the most talented, amazing rainmakers and experts in legal all over the world and and no different, right?

We’re going to talk to you today. You’re an expert, right?

Kyle Harbaugh: Yeah, absolutely. Great to be here.

Steve Fretzin: And so I’m happy that you’re here and we’re going to have some fun. We’re going to have some laughs. And most importantly, we’re going to provide. Valuable tips and insights that help my listeners be that lawyer, confident, organized and skilled [00:02:00] Rainmakers.

Let’s start off with our quote of the show. And people have mentioned for years, the Michael Jordan Jersey, the autographed Michael Jordan Jersey I picked up in 95 that’s been sitting behind me from day one. And this one is a Michael Jordan quote and it’s talent wins games, but teamwork and intelligence wins championships.

Welcome to the show and tell us a little bit about why you love that quote so much.

Kyle Harbaugh: I love that quote because I grew up in Chicago. I was a child in the nineties when it was just magic in the air. And like people would come and say, Oh, I saw it. I saw Scotty Pippen today. I was out at this restaurant and he was there, or I was at the mall and Tony Kukoc was there and it was just this really magical time.

And I love that quote because I liked Jordan a lot. And he started his career and all eyes were on him. He was very talented, but he didn’t start winning championships right out of the gate. He realized that it was more about the [00:03:00] team than the talent that he brought. And you need other people on your team to really go far, that you can win individual games.

But that will only take you so far. If you really want to consistently win, you have to have a team.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah, really critical. And I so appreciate that, Michael Jordan to me represents excellence. He represents motivation and dedication to winning. That’s what I’m trying to do every day. And that’s what I’m trying to work with my clients on.

And I just had one of my clients graduate from the, I teach a class that goes on for six, seven months. And. Just raving about the program and raving about how efficient he’s become and how much business he’s closed and all this great stuff. And I’m beaming, but more importantly, it’s I get my younger clients to understand what can happen when you put that kind of effort in.

And I think he has a great team. He’s got like a 10 lawyer firm and he’s just crushing it right now. Shout out to Eric. But let’s move into a little bit about yourself. Everybody, you’re listening to Kyle Harborough Harborough, that’s a former bear quarterback, right? Name Harborough. Yeah.

Kyle Harbaugh: Harbois is how you say it, [00:04:00] but It’s Kyle Harbaugh, it’s a, John Harbaugh is the former Bears Coach, and then his brother, Jim Harbaugh was the co the quarterback. And John is the other coach, interestingly enough, their father is also John, but went by Jack. And my dad is john Harbaugh. My uncle is Jim Harbaugh.

My grandfather is john Harbaugh went by jack, but it’s not who you’re thinking

Steve Fretzin: of. By the way, none of it related to the athletes and the coaches.

Kyle Harbaugh: No. There could be a distant relationship. But,

Steve Fretzin: Nothing that I know. All right. Listen, we won’t hold that against you. You’re still going to, demonstrate excellence on the field today on the show.

You’re the founder, president of Chief Go Officers. And give us a little background of how you got into, legal and working with lawyers because it’s, you’ve got quite an interesting background.

Kyle Harbaugh: Yeah. So I worked as a paralegal for many years. I’ve worked in law firms for almost 14 years at this point.

I was a paralegal, like I said, office manager for a while, then I [00:05:00] negotiated pre litigation settlements on behalf of the Postal Service, and so I’ve negotiated over 600 claims, I’ve given away close to 8 million, and so I’ve seen a lot of different things, and I’ve interfaced with a lot of different lawyers.

And one of the things that early on in my career, I interacted with a firm that wasn’t so great. They had some real interesting, amazing things about them. And then they also had some real flaws and I took notes, what worked, what didn’t. Always had a entrepreneurial spirit and I’ve always just taken notes.

Like I said, what works and what doesn’t. And I thought that was just a one off experience that. The dysfunction in that firm was unique. And then as I interfaced with more and more lawyers, I worked with more and more lawyers in different capacities. I realized that there was substantial dysfunction within the legal industry.

And I truly, I developed a burden for attorneys. I wanted to see better for them. And I saw [00:06:00] that they were very good at being attorneys. They felt very strongly about the work they did, but they weren’t always very good on business side of things. And so I wanted to. Bring that, the support that they need so that they could move their business forward and that they could enjoy where they work and the work that they do more.

That their staff can enjoy the work that they do and their clients get a better service overall So

Steve Fretzin: and if I mean if you had to put a two or three points on what you just said like what are the key business areas that you saw? The deficit that you know again, they don’t learn that in law school and we’ve talked about that on the show ad nauseum what are the kind of the main gaps that you were seeing and just that helped you draw you to you know Spending more time working with them.

Kyle Harbaugh: Yeah, so I It was, not enough time. They’re working very long hours. They’re time starved professionals. And they don’t have systems and processes in play that are helping to be done in a consistent manner, in a systematic [00:07:00] manner. And I just, taking a step back and thinking through what a thoughtful workflow is.

Or either getting educated on a particular matter or hiring experts. A lot of times I see lawyers, they want to do it themselves. They’re very smart and they’re like, I can figure this out. And yeah, sure you can, but it’s going to take you longer because you never did it and you’re going to have to fail and make mistakes along the way.

You’re going to get so much further faster if you bring an expert alongside of you can really work with you and help.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah. And I’m finding that lawyers struggle with. making decisions to bring in outside people to help, whether that’s me or you or website companies or whatever it is that they’re in need of, that there’s a deficit.

And I know it’s a, because they want to try it themselves and they feel like they can figure it out because they’re smart people. Totally. Or maybe it’s because they’ve just been burned before and they just, they’re always real risk averse and hesitant to deal with somebody new could be the [00:08:00] perfectionist attorney side of things.

But where do you see the real challenges and their ability to Identify problems on their own and resolve them

Kyle Harbaugh: so you don’t know what you don’t know. And what I have found is so we have this process. It’s a discovery process for it’s for step. So step is a school that we developed from the ground up.

It’s an entirely unique. A business planning tool that allows you to identify your five largest opportunities for growth. It’s a decision making tool. So it’s not you get an extra log in or anything like that, but it’s a decision making tool. We give you a detailed report about where you need to focus, what you need to do to really move your business forward.

And I’ve had several clients tell me that just going through the questionnaire is transformative because asked so many questions they had never considered before. And the report is so holistic. That it’s able to [00:09:00] not only identify those five largest opportunities for growth, but it analyzes your business in 12 key areas.

And so it really sets you on a trajectory for growth and for looking at your business in a new way and realizing there’s all these other sectors that you might not have considered, or maybe you have, but you didn’t realize how much depth there was in that area. And this gives you so many new ideas.

Had several clients tell me that it was valuable just to go through the detailed questionnaire that we have people go through, do their step report.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah, and there’s a saying or a quote that I’ve been reusing quite a bit, which is you can’t read the label from the inside of the bottle which you may have found yourself saying, but it’s true.

In fact, I have a friend Ron Latz, who has been on the show. He’s a marketing guy and I have, do you

Kyle Harbaugh: know Ron? I know. I love Ron. We’ve talked. He’s a great guy.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah. So like I said to him, Hey man, would you do me a favor? And I’ll pay you, like I’m not going to, withhold, I just said, can you just take a [00:10:00] look at all the stuff I’m doing?

And I’m, I’ve got more marketing than maybe anybody I know, but is it all doing what it’s supposed to do is the YouTube and the podcast and the articles I’m writing and the books I’m putting out and all that, are they all working? With the website to like accomplish things. So I’m in it, I’m in the bottle, and I’m doing a lot, there’s a lot coming out of the bottle, but it’s not, is it all working together? So I think it’s important to leverage, especially people that have been highly validated that, are excellent at what they do to bring them in to to take a closer look. Let’s take a soft left turn and let’s talk a little bit about what are.

Some of the main areas that law firms should be and lawyers should be focusing on in order to grow their law practices. And one area that I want to talk through is business planning. I find that most of the lawyers that I work with, when the law firms that I work with, they may have a plan that’s usually crap.

What’s a common issue that they have with planning and like having a strategic plan or a business development plan or whatever it might be?

Kyle Harbaugh: You need to start. At the first step, and [00:11:00] I would say the first step is understanding what your vision is. Where do you want to go? What is the advantageous improved state that you want to get to?

And then after you get that vision, you have to articulate it well. That can be some of the most difficult part is you have it in your head, but you need to be able to speak it to other people and articulate it so that they can go, yeah, that makes sense. I see the need. I see how it would be good to get to that improved state.

I want to come with you. And so that is compelling for so many different reasons. So I would say have your vision very clearly identified. What do you want? How do and then mission next step, how are you going to get there? What is the plan you’re actually going to put in place? And then if you have those two pieces, Everything becomes a lot, much more clear.

You can test it and go, does it make sense in light of my vision and my [00:12:00] mission, does this activity make sense? Is it in line with those things? And then having core values, understanding what’s important to you, is also very important. And being able to communicate that. A lot of people, they start off as a solo practitioner, that might be just them, or maybe a paralegal, or a receptionist, or something like that.

But their team is really small, and they’re like, why do I need to think through that? It’s going to set the trajectory for the rest of your days and for all the days in your office or all your business growth.

Steve Fretzin: Is there a concern that lawyers should have that their vision or mission is the most important thing and then it may not align with the team, right?

The team is there to do their job and to work and whatever, but they don’t really maybe know what the overall vision is for the firm. They’re just like doing their job. A, is that a problem? And then B, how do you bring the team in to buy [00:13:00] into a vision or mission because you don’t want to lose people because they’re not bought in?

Yeah, that makes or maybe you do want to lose or maybe you do want to lose people. That’s yeah, you may,

Kyle Harbaugh: You may. So yeah, start early. Then you can communicate that everybody who comes into your organization, that’s what we’ve done at chief go officers. And it’s worked really well. But if you have existing team members, you need to articulate it well, and you need to persuade them.

And then once they’re, they bought in, you need to continue to encourage them along the way, especially when it gets hard, because oftentimes movement to advantage, it’s difficult. And yes, it’s going to be an improved state, but From here to there is going to be tricky and it’s going to be difficult and it could have some, definitely some effort and some sacrifice associated with it.

And so it’s important to know that those difficulties are coming and that you need to [00:14:00] continue to reinforce the vision and continue to persuade and. And encourage people along the way.

Steve Fretzin: It also might impact your hiring moving forward. Yes, you want to persuade the right people that are on their bus to go in the direction you’re going.

And you mentioned, get them early, then once you have that in place, everyone that comes on board needs to understand the vision, the mission, and maybe also I would add. What are the core values that you said, maybe core values is like work ethic, right? And so you’d want to bring in people that align with your work ethic or align with some of your core values.

Otherwise, your expectations are here, up here, and then maybe they’re coming in down there.

Kyle Harbaugh: Yep, exactly. I, so that dovetails really well with our other AI system. Right higher is our other system we built from the ground up. And it identifies not only who is that a player who’s got that really good skill set that you want, but it looks at their personal goals and it meshes [00:15:00] them with what you want to go, what you want to do, where you want to go with your firm.

So you two are aligned. So what they want is what you want, and what you want is what they want. So you’re moving in the same direction, and not only do they have the right skills, but they have a very good culture fit, they have long term goals that are aligned, so that you can really bring somebody into your organization.

They’re going to work hard, they’re going to do a good job, and they’re going to stay long term, hopefully. Because their long term goals are aligned with firms.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah. With proven SEO and digital marketing strategies that drive actual clients to your firm rankings. io prides itself on proof, not promises mentality.

The best firms hire rankings. io when they want rankings, traffic, and cases, other law firm marketing agencies.

Hey everybody, Steve Fretzin here. Man, I thought I was a good marketer, but maybe not. Lawyers have been approaching me asking, [00:16:00] what’s the Rainmakers Roundtable? I tell them this is a special place created exclusively for rainmaking lawyers to continue their journey of prosperity. Our program is unique as every member has a significant book of business and is motivated to grow it year after year.

Where else does this exist? If you’re a managing partner who’s looking to get off your lonely island and talk shop with America’s top rate makers, please go to my website, Fretzin. com and apply for membership today. I don’t know if I mentioned this in my last episode, I just wrote an article for Above the Law, it’s probably out already, but how lawyers need to make decisions.

And I think with hiring, a lot of lawyers are doing it on gut. And I don’t disagree that gut is a critical component of hiring. The problem is that they’re not maybe preparing the proper interview questions. They’re not preparing assessments and assessment tools. Maybe there’s proper validation that isn’t happening.

And so they bring someone into the organization and they’re relying on that person and paying them a lot of [00:17:00] money. And then they don’t get the results out of that person. Because that person showed their best possible version in the interview and then everything is falling short of that once you get them in the door.

Kyle Harbaugh: Yeah, that’s definitely part of it. I actually had a law firm owner tell me that last week that this person was a rock star and then they got hired and it was like, who is this person? Yeah. But at the same time, maybe you didn’t do a good job of articulating what this role was going to be and the expectations involved.

Yeah. and what their day to day was going to look like. And so they get there and they’re like, I didn’t sign up for this. And so there could be a disconnect for a couple different reasons. And so I think it’s, you have to be very clear and set expectations well and have very good communication. And that gets to a deeper piece that, lawyers need to learn leadership skills if they own Walker.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah, but I think if you’re untrained [00:18:00] and you don’t have a process for effective managing or yet hiring, and you wonder why this person didn’t work out and you put that on them, like they didn’t do their, sometimes there’s. Try to avoid crazy or try to avoid people, that are going to be disruptive.

Negative people could be an issue. But I think we also have to look inward and say, Hey, what skills are we lacking? What process are we lacking that allowed for this to happen? And sometimes that’s a good thing because it might be the eye opener that a law firm leader needs to make a change.

Kyle Harbaugh: Yeah, I completely agree.

If you learn from failures aren’t setbacks, they’re learning events.

Steve Fretzin: Yes, yeah, not everybody sees them like that because they can be so emotional or they could be, just so just you feel so down about it and we don’t look at it from that perspective because we’re in the middle of it.

Kyle Harbaugh: Yeah, that’s a really good point and I, just to be totally frank, I don’t believe even many HR people do hiring and recruiting well. Yeah. [00:19:00] It needs to be much more thoughtful. And so that’s why we’ve developed our tool to provide a decision making analysis so that you can make a decision much, much quicker.

And it’s looking at personality, personal goals, and skillset, not just skillset and past experiences. And then on the company side, it’s looking at benefits, culture and developmental opportunities. So it’s taking a lot more data and synthesizing it into a report that tells you really who is. truly the best fit for the role because I’ve seen it several times where some people like this person, other people on the committee, they like that person.

Who do we pick? And I’ve seen some really interesting ways that’s decided.

Steve Fretzin: What would be an example since you brought it up?

Kyle Harbaugh: I saw one time they flipped the coin.

Steve Fretzin: Okay. Oh, that’s not, that’s actually not the worst. It’s not the worst idea. If you’ve got two people that are equally qualified and you just can’t decide, they’re both amazing.

Like you have to pick one. How do you do it?

Kyle Harbaugh: [00:20:00] Right. And that’s a kind of a interesting cautionary tale. The person they ended up hiring was great culture fit. Worked really well, but long term they weren’t aligned and they left about six months later.

Steve Fretzin: Okay. Should’ve gone with tails. Damn it.

Wow. Hindsight’s 20 20. Maybe keep a good relationship with the candidate that didn’t come on because you might need her in six months. Yeah. Don’t burn any bridges. So let me ask you this question. What should law firms consider when trying to fill leadership roles? You’ve got, laterals that could be coming in that bring in books of business.

It could be people that you want to eventually take over in a leadership capacity, executive committee, maybe managing partner of the future. What are some things they should consider there? I

Kyle Harbaugh: would say, look at what other skills or experience they have outside of law school. Because like we talked about earlier law school prepares you for being a lawyer, doesn’t necessarily make you a good [00:21:00] leader.

It doesn’t, it doesn’t make you a good business owner necessarily. And I, so I would look for other opportunities or Maybe just not a lawyer at all. There’s also very skilled people who are non lawyers who can do the work and provide leadership. Now, obviously if somebody is going to be in a management role and mentoring attorneys, obviously you need to pick somebody who’s done it and performed at a very high level for a while, they need to have that track record, and I truly believe you need good, solid mentors, training up.

your associates so that they’re performing well and serving your clients at a high level. But some of those other roles, if it doesn’t require a law license, if practicing law is not an essential piece of that,

Steve Fretzin: I would look a little broader. Okay, so looking at past maybe CEOs, past managers of accounting firms or maybe [00:22:00] financial services firms, things where they have a set of skills that may not have been done in legal, but those skills would translate over very well.

Kyle Harbaugh: Yes, transferable skills. And then also I would say it goes really far for somebody, what kind of spirit do they have? Is it entrepreneurial? Do they think outside the box? Do they, are they open to new ideas? One of the things I don’t think lawyers are very, I think there’s a certain particular personality that is drawn to being a lawyer and while being risk averse is really good for the courtroom, not maybe the best choice for a leadership position, because leadership, you’re going to have to take risks and they need to be calculated.

And if you fail. You need to be able to recover quickly and learn. But what I’ve seen a lot of attorneys do is they don’t thrive in those leadership positions because they’re so risk averse and they’re, they can’t, like you said, the emotions associated with that [00:23:00] failure is too devastating. And, or the firm doesn’t handle it well.

And so failure becomes fatal and it’s this person failed and now they’re out. And so people don’t want to take risks if they screw up. They’re out, they’re fire. So I would say that you have to manage failure in a different way, in a more constructive way and. That’s tricky. That’s I’ll give you

Steve Fretzin: an, I’ll give you another example from outside of legal is when I was in, my early years, my twenties and different sales roles, and usually the best sales person would end up being offered a management role and they were crushing it at sales and then they get into management, a completely different set of skills.

And then they wonder why that person failed and if they didn’t train them properly, they just weren’t built for it. Then, problems arose and they’d end up, eventually going back into a senior sales role. But I think if we take that and bring it over to the law, they usually will take, law firms will take their top rainmaker and say, Hey, you’re our top rainmaker.

You [00:24:00] clearly care about the business. You’ve got this skill set and you probably should be the leader of the firm. Sometimes that works out really well. And other times I think it’s like they’re taking Michael Jordan. And putting him on the bench and saying, Hey, don’t sell anymore or full time.

Why don’t you focus on helping Phil Jackson coach, which, and that’s going to take you off the court half the time. So why are we losing games?

Kyle Harbaugh: Exactly. No, I think that’s really well said. I agree. Yeah, just because they are very successful in one role, it doesn’t mean they’re going to be successful when you elevate them.

And so it might be more beneficial to have somebody who has a different skill set entirely, or maybe is not so entrenched in that particular role, and who can come from the outside and bring a fresh new perspective.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Sometimes I, I’ve got, rainmakers all over the globe that work with me and they’re building multi million dollar books of business, they get offered or they get in the running for management roles.

And I’m not saying I’m the devil’s advocate for it all. Sometimes it’s the right move, but in many [00:25:00] cases it’s do they realize how many, like I know all these managing partners, I understand the headaches they have and how many people come out of it and say, it was a great experience that I went through, but, if I had to do it over again, geez, maybe I wouldn’t have because I could have built.

A 5 million book into a 10 million book and I would have had total control over my time and my life and travel and all this stuff. And now I, I took on this management role, which was just, based, like glorified babysitting and spinning a thousand plates at the same time and not sleeping and whatever.

And again, I don’t want to. Crap on the idea of being a managing partner. I think that’s an important role, but I know that for some of my clients that were business development is the key. It can be a way to really put it on hiatus for a while, which I’m not thrilled about.

Kyle Harbaugh: Yeah. And I think that goes back to what we talked about earlier, about understanding your vision, your mission, your values.

What’s important to you and not only for your organization, but you personally, and so build, stay consistent with the decisions you make, and and [00:26:00] you can’t be consistent if you don’t know those things.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah, so yeah, start with the end in mind, I think is a good takeaway.

Hey, man, let’s wrap up with our game changing podcast, and by the way, did this 30 minutes just fly by?

Kyle Harbaugh: Oh, yeah, it’s been great. I’ve loved it so much. It’s

Steve Fretzin: crazy.

Kyle Harbaugh: Yeah, it has. I’ve really enjoyed it. I’ve really enjoyed speaking with you and your audience. I loved it. I was so excited to speak with you guys because you’re innovators.

You want to get better. You want to learn. You’re not happy, staying stagnant, want to grow. And so I really enjoyed this talk. Yeah.

Steve Fretzin: That’s the beauty of my audience. This show isn’t about the law. It’s not about, how to, crank out matters. The legal work. People that listen, they’re hungry to learn.

They’re anxious to get a tip, an idea, a new software, whatever, a new way to hire new. question ask, whatever it might be. And one of the great innovators of entrepreneur in our current age is Alex Hermosi. And I know that you and I both listened to the podcast, the game and take a moment and just explain why this guy who used to be a gym rat and used [00:27:00] to sell gym memberships and help gyms to be successful would be, or could be impactful to folks like us and lawyers.

Kyle Harbaugh: So I’ve studied a lot of business. I’ve studied a lot of philosophy. I got a green philosophy. Alex Hormozy is a brilliant mind and he is a detached perspective and he brings up things all the time that I’m like, Oh shoot, I never really thought about that, but he makes a good point. And so I really I like him for a lot of different reasons.

And I enjoy his podcast consistently. I never let feel like, eh, that one was okay. It’s always holy smokes. That was really interesting. And I have some things to think about. And yeah, he’s somebody I learned from frequently.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah, I read his book, The Million Dollar

Kyle Harbaugh: Offers?

Steve Fretzin: Yeah, Million Dollar Offers.

And it’s one of those books that you just find yourself writing in the margins and earmarking and saying, I have to come back to this because that one idea could be [00:28:00] absolutely critical for my business and where it goes. And I would recommend, it’s a very, A, it’s very inexpensive to buy and B, if you want to just listen to it, he gives it away on the game.

I think he gives away both or all of his books as audios on his podcast, so you can pick it up there. But, shout out to Alex Ramosi, great, brilliant mind and helping a lot of people. Like he just says, I don’t, I don’t want to sell my stuff. I just want, people to tell others about it and spread the word, which is what we’re doing.

Kyle Harbaugh: Yeah. And one of the things he said is he really likes that he consistently reads his philosophy I think having that kind of background really helps you to think in a different way, and I just enjoy the way that guy does.

Steve Fretzin: It’s not that, I don’t think it’s a typical business book like many that I’ve read and you’ve read.

I think that’s the thing that sort of sets it apart, and he just gives very practical actionable things that just says do this and it’s okay, I’ll do that. Hey, let’s take a moment to thank our wonderful sponsors, The LawHer Podcast, amazing with Sonya, and PIMCON is coming up. That is the premier personal [00:29:00] injury conference happening in October with my friend Chris Dreyer.

Check that out, everybody. Hey, Kyle, if people want to get in touch with you, they want to hear more about what you’re doing with Step AI and the hiring process and all the stuff you’ve got, what are the best digits?

Kyle Harbaugh: So my personal cell phone, (224) 628-9935. My website is chief go officers.com. We also have right hire ai.com and then you can find me on LinkedIn.

I’m very active on LinkedIn. So go ahead, connect with me, let me know you listen to the show. I’d love to connect with you and provide you more business support.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah. We need, we need folks like us, that A, care about the legal community and individuals and helping them build and B, just like taking over for where, their L3 ended up.

They got out of law school with, an education that’s not preparing them for the business side. And I think, folks like us step in and try to make it easier and less painful to get to where they want to be. So kudos to you and kudos to me and good for [00:30:00] us and all that fun stuff.

But thanks again for coming on the show and sharing your wisdom, my friend. I appreciate it.

Kyle Harbaugh: My pleasure. It’s been a lot of fun. Thank you. Yeah,

Steve Fretzin: my pleasure as well. And thank you everybody for hanging out with Kyle and I for the last 30 minutes helping you be that lawyer, confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker.

Take care, be safe, be well. We’ll talk again soon.

Narrator: Thanks for listening to Be That Lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website Fretzin. com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information, visit Fretzin.com.

More information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes.