Ellen Cohen: How High‑Performing Lawyers Can 10x Their Impact Without 10x the Hours

High-performing lawyers are drowning in billable hours, perfectionism, and constant interruptions—but it doesn’t have to be that way. In this episode, you’ll learn practical strategies to delegate better, protect your time, and manage stress so you can build a sustainable practice without burning out.

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Ellen Cohen discuss:

• Transition from in-house entertainment lawyer to leadership coach
• Biggest stressors and billable-hour pressure in modern law practice
• Delegation myths and the real cost of “it’s easier if I do it myself”
• Time management, prioritization, and managing interruptions
• Perfectionism, neuroscience of stress, and practical self-care habits

Key Takeaways:

• Treating every task as equally urgent and important is a fast track to burnout; you must distinguish between high-value, urgent work and tasks that can be delegated or delayed.
• The mindset of “it’s easier if I do it myself” hides a massive hidden cost in lost billable hours, lost growth, and lost personal time.
• Truly effective delegation requires training others, tolerating imperfection in the short term, and focusing your time on work that matches your highest value and rate.
• Perfectionism may look professional on the surface, but it often comes from self-limiting beliefs and dramatically slows productivity while increasing stress and risk of burnout.
• Chronic stress pushes you into fight-or-flight, which makes clear thinking neurologically harder and raises the risk of malpractice—regular breaks, movement, and joy-producing activities are therefore performance tools, not luxuries.

“When you’re stressed out, when you’re in fight or flight, when you’re in your sympathetic nervous system, you actually cannot neurologically think clearly, and it elevates your risk of malpractice, making mistakes, errors, reactivity, emotional responses that are not in line. You cannot work as efficiently.” —  Ellen Cohen

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About Ellen Cohen: Ellen B. Cohen is a seasoned executive coach, organizational consultant, and former attorney who brings over 25 years of senior executive experience at major media and tech companies like Disney, Sony, Fox, Microsoft, and Viacom to her leadership development practice. Leveraging over 2,500 hours of coaching experience, she partners with C-suite executives and high-achieving professionals to help them expand their influence, manage stress through neuroscience, and transition from reactive execution to strategic leadership. Ellen holds a J.D. from Emory University School of Law, a Master’s in Organization Development and Leadership from Fielding Graduate University, is admitted to the state bars of CA, NY, FL, and GA, and holds multiple elite coaching credentials (PCC, CPCC, CPQC). As a Core Guide for the executive women’s network Chief, she combines her deep corporate background with mental fitness practices to help leaders break through mental glass ceilings and build sustainable, high-impact careers.

Connect with Ellen Cohen:

Website: https://ebccoaching.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ebccoaching/

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LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

Instagram: @fretzinsteve

Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.

Website: Fretzin.com

Email: Steve@Fretzin.com

Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!

YouTube: Steve Fretzin

Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Steve Fretzin  [00:00]

Hey everybody, before we get to the show, just want to remind you that the Be That Lawyer community is up and running and rock and rolling. We have a lot of amazing business developer and rainmaking attorneys in there. We’ve got incredible content, courses, live events, and all kinds of ways to help you to be that lawyer. Check it out today at Be That lawyer.com/community. And other than that, please enjoy the show.

 

Narrator  [00:29]

You’re listening to Be That Lawyer: Life-Changing Strategies and Resources for Growing a Successful Law Practice. Each episode, your host, author, and lawyer coach Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.

 

Steve Fretzin  [00:51]

Everybody, Steve Fretzin, and welcome to Be That Lawyer. I am just so happy that you’re here. If you’re hearing this for the first time, I want to welcome you to the show. This is a show helping you to be that lawyer, confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker. Twice a week, every week, for the last six, almost seven years, we are here to help you figure out marketing, business development, time management. How can we help relieve stress? Anything and everything that’s going to help you be your best self, live your best lawyer’s life. I’m very fortunate that I continue to get incredible people referred to me and people that find me to be on the show, and then I have a process of selection where we meet and we talk and we figure out, you know, is this a good fit, and today is an absolute perfect fit. You’re going to get so much out of Ellen. How are you, Ellen?

 

Ellen Cohen  [01:36]

Good afternoon, good morning, good evening. Great, thank you. Now,

 

Steve Fretzin  [01:39]

here’s our funny story. So, you noticed when we met that I had the autograph Michael Jordan jersey behind me. Then you totally forgot about it, and then you send me your quote of the show, and I’ll say the quote, and then let people figure out who it is. Here it is. I’ve missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I’ve lost almost 300 games, 20-six times I’ve been trusted to take the game-winning shot and missed, I failed over and over and over again in my life, and that’s why I succeed. All right, I guess that’s Scottie Pippen. No, it’s my art, it’s Michael Jordan. So, you know, I think that’s such an incredible quote. What do you love about it, and what does it kind of all mean to you?

 

Ellen Cohen  [02:17]

You know, obviously it was my quote, but when you read it to me, it just gave me chills, you know. Because Michael Jordan, obviously the goat, the greatest of all time, you know, he’s obviously like the top player, and yet he missed so many shots, and it wasn’t the thing that kept him down, it was the thing that helped him succeed. And it’s about reframing and rethinking about when things happen to us that they’re not bad, they’re learning, they’re scientific experiments. We run them again and again until we get excellent at it, and that’s what makes us great. That is what leads us to success, and that’s what I love about it.

 

Steve Fretzin  [02:52]

Yeah, there’s a book I wrote, a network called The Attorney’s Networking Handbook, and I think I start the book by saying no one has ever made more mistakes networking that I have, you know, and I talk about the team, you know, the 10,000 hour rule. I don’t know if it was 10,000 hours, but I mean, I missed every family dinner, and I was out every night, and my wife’s like, “Where are you? I’m like, “I’m building a business, honey, but I had no idea what I was doing initially, and made a lot of mistakes, and learned, and improved, and eventually I was teaching people how to network, but it’s really important that lawyers recognize that business development, growing a law practice, even being in house, right, is very, very challenging, and that there’s going to be mistakes, and I think it’s really about how we learn from them that kind of defines us so well. Everybody, like I said, you’re in for a treat today. Um, I’ve got Ellen Cohn, she’s with EBC Coaching and Consulting. And give us a little bit of your background, how you came to be. I know you have a heavy in-house experience.

 

Ellen Cohen  [03:48]

Yeah, thank you. I actually started my career way, way back. I started it in litigation. I did two years, just going way back and beginning my career, but most of my career was in house and I was able to follow my passion and my dream and I ended up being lucky enough to end up in Hollywood working for the major studios I worked my first job was at what is now Sony Pictures Television I worked at Disney I worked at Fox I worked at a television group that was at Microsoft for a short time, and so most of my career has been doing that. I’ve also represented clients, but I’ve been an executive coach, a leadership coach, to be accurate. For it was sort of concurrently, but for almost 16 years at this point. So, and I have a master’s in organizational development and leadership, and so it’s my passion.

 

Steve Fretzin  [04:39]

Yeah. Awesome. So, tell me, what your day-to-day is with EBC coaching. Like, what are you doing? What’s your day job?

 

Ellen Cohen  [04:45]

So, I work with a lot of different clients, but I would say the preponderance of my clients are lawyers. Oddly enough, they choose me maybe because I’m a woman lawyer, but they choose me probably because I’m a lawyer, but I work with a lot of lawyers where. Or in firm or in practice, and we talk about all the issues that come up for the leadership issues within a law firm or within a studio within a company. It’s not the rain maker issues we deal with, the things that actually provide the opportunity for them to be rainmakers. We deal with influence, we deal with impact, we deal with time management, prioritization, delegation, how to have better presence and confidence,

 

Steve Fretzin  [05:26]

but that sounds exactly like what rainmakers are dealing with, right? They don’t know how to delegate, automate, they struggle with leadership, they struggle with delegation, and, and time management, and you know, and balancing everything, which is really, really challenging, and yes, getting there is also, is also quite difficult. So, what are you, what would you say are the biggest challenges and stressors that you’re seeing in lawyers right now?

 

Ellen Cohen  [05:48]

I think classic ones, obviously, is the pressure for billable hours. I mean, that has not changed how many hours, and just getting that out, and then how do you also build a practice? How do you become that rainmaker when you’re so busy doing the day to day, and then doing a lot more with a lot less, you know, there are fewer people, there are fewer assistants, obviously, the insurgent of AI, and using AI in lieu of a person, there are billable hour issues, I mean, just actually the functioning of putting your billable hours down, and the stress of high performance, high expectations. I don’t think any bits changed. I just think that it’s that constant pressure.

 

Steve Fretzin  [06:26]

Yeah, I mean, you think, and I don’t want to have an AI conversation because we’re all kind of sick of it, but she’s.. I mean, do you think.. I mean, I’m seeing AI firsthand taking some weight off of me. When I even.. when we were just starting, we were talking about how text messes our mop our brains, and I was like, well, now I just asked ChatGPT, how do I resolve this Zoom issue, or how to resolve this Mac issue that I can’t figure out how to get a setting right? It could be automating my email, it could be automating my scheduling, and all these, you know, tools like that. Are you seeing it create stress, or you’re seeing it relieve some stress, or both?

 

Ellen Cohen  [07:00]

Yeah, both. I think one of the things that I’ve been hearing from a lot of my clients is that their clients are using AI and their clients are trying to do the legal work and then asking their lawyers to validate or justify or defend their own work, and that becomes very stressful, and you have a client who thinks that they now know more than the lawyer, because AI has given them a perspective. I mean, this is sort of outside the scope of my work. It’s just the hearing from the clients about, you know, it can actually expedite, but there are certain things, you know, with any new technology that creates stressors.

 

Steve Fretzin  [07:40]

Yeah, right on. And so you know, one thing that I wanted to hit you up with was really about, you know, delegation, time management. In lawyers, I find often treat like every assignment, every, you know, billable hour, every project they work on with equal urgency and deserving of maximum effort, which is great, except it’s not practical when we’re trying to get them to, you know, value high-level work over the maybe the stuff that’s they’re just over engineering because of perfectionist. So, what’s your take on that? Is it how do they sort of see that and then recognize it?

 

Ellen Cohen  [08:14]

Well, I think you just sort of highlighted some of the issues like perfectionism and the work, and so it’s about how are they going to manage that workflow that comes in. They have to really think about, and just, you know, mentioned it too. But how do you prioritize what is absolutely necessary, what is urgent, what needs to be done right now, what is in normal workflow, what is, you know, the thing that can be delegated, what is it that you know that everything has to be dropped, and you have to really like, you know, it’s a 501 fire, so it’s really thinking about the Lord has to really take the time and pause and think about what’s on their plate, what’s coming in, and not be distracted by the first thing in is the first thing that they handle, yeah. And there’s also sort of like that attention stand thing that we all have these days, you know? When we get that inbox ping, right, you get distracted, it’s the same thing. So, when your work comes in, are you being distracted by first in line, and what is going to be the best use of your time, as that you know, especially if you’re charging, you know, you’re a high-end lawyer, you’re not a junior partner, you’re a, you’re a senior person, you’re not a junior associate, you’re a senior partner. What is the best use of your time? What makes the most sense for you to be doing on your own or delegating out?

 

Steve Fretzin  [09:40]

Yeah, and I think you know, looking gear to your point, like, start, you know, either the night before, start the day, look at what you have, figure out, like, what’s the big hairy beast of project that you need to get done today, and is that something you start first, or is that something you schedule time for? How do you figure out, like, what is. Is a non-negotiable for the day, and what are things that maybe can be pushed and moved around, and what’s a good process for lawyers on that?

 

Ellen Cohen  [10:07]

Well, I think the first thing is they really have to think about not being reactive, they can’t be reactive about their work, they have to realize that they’re servicing their clients, but that’s not necessarily the way that they can build the sustainable practice, they really have to think carefully, and, like I just said, just because somebody calls you, they are, it’s their problem feels urgent and important and necessary for them, but what is it for you, you know? And Howard, what kind of gatekeepers do you have, so you’re not being interrupted? How do you protect your calendar, your time, your workflow. How are you thinking about your work? So, you have to really look at what’s coming in, what’s a priority, what requires, what are the partners requiring, because they’re going to prioritize, and they’re going to be the ones that you have to pay attention to, but there are also going to be times when you have to say to them, hey, senior partner, I’ve got five things on my plate. You’re asking me to deliver this right away, but that means I have to push this. Let’s talk about this, because that’s going to impact and have a domino effect. So, sometimes you actually have to ask the question and not be afraid of presenting the scenario, and let them help you think through it.

 

Steve Fretzin  [11:21]

Yeah,

 

Ellen Cohen  [11:21]

and at the partner you have to be aware of that. Shout out to our

 

Steve Fretzin  [11:24]

sponsor, Lex Reception. Don’t pick up your own phone. I, when lawyers answer their phone, I get it. They want to be seen as responsive. They love the clients, love that they pick up the rub. I had a guy, a lawyer years ago, and I every time I call them, he picked up. Now I’m not a high-value client, I’m a small business, and whatever. But he pick up the phone, and I said, “You pick up the phone every time I call, and I love that. I love that about you as a lawyer. I go, “How do you do that for everybody? He goes, “Oh, yeah, I try to do that forever. I go, “Do you get any work done? He goes, “I don’t get any work done all day. I do, I can’t get anything done. I said, “So there’s got to be a balance of how you set expectations, how you delegate your phone or your email, so that you’re not getting hijacked all day long, right? You’ve got to have a plan and be able to follow it. If your plan is open your inbox and good luck, you know, good luck.

 

Ellen Cohen  [12:16]

Yeah, I run a women’s mastermind for women attorneys, and one of the topics that we dealt with was is workflow and interruptions, and we were talking about all the different ways that you can manage all of that, and some of it is some people do time blocking, you know, you figure out when on your calendar is it quiet time, you won’t be interrupted. When is it open door policy, and people can come in? When is it that you’re taking and receiving and making phone calls, and so allocating, and for some people this works really well. For some people, they, they can’t work that way. So it’s really everything is about what works for you and what is it that’s causing you to get backlogged. So that’s part of the analysis, right? Where are you getting backlogs? So, if it’s interruption, then you have to figure out how to minimize those and figure out what will help you not be interrupted. So, interruptions do impact our ability to work effectively, and in fact, from a neuroscience perspective, every time you’re interrupted, whether it’s a ping on your phone or you get up and you make a phone call, the science says that when you come back to your work, it actually takes you quite an amount of time. I don’t remember the exact number, like

 

Steve Fretzin  [13:33]

15 to 30 minutes

 

Ellen Cohen  [13:34]

to get right back to that same mindset, because you’ve broken the chain, and so you’re thinking about that lawyer that you used to call, and he wasn’t getting any work done, so yeah, he had great relationships, but he wasn’t delivering his work. Yeah, so

 

Steve Fretzin  [13:50]

the problematic when it’s, you know, it’s part and parcel with a number of things. I mean, there’s perfectionism issues, there’s delegation issues, there’s time management issues. The, you know, I don’t have time to delegate. I mean, think about that line. It’s just easier to do it myself, is maybe top five things lawyers say, right? It’s just easier if I do it myself.

 

Ellen Cohen  [14:12]

Take us through that daily. I

 

Steve Fretzin  [14:16]

didn’t make it up, right? I’m not coming off the cuff with that.

 

Ellen Cohen  [14:20]

And everybody who’s listening, going, yeah, it is easy to do it myself, but there’s a cost, just like the guy who’s picking up his own phone, there is a cost, yeah.

 

Steve Fretzin  [14:32]

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Ellen Cohen  [16:10]

Well, I’d love to hear what you have

 

Steve Fretzin  [16:11]

to say. Hey, that sounds like a lawyer answer, right there. A lawyer question to my question number one is identify, you know, what you’re doing all day, and what, what is it? Your pay grade, if you’re 500 an hour, 750 an hour, $1,000 an hour, and you track your day, and you identify things that are zero, 20, $50 an hour tasks, you’re making your own copies, if you’re an estate planner, or you’re doing first year, second year litigation associate work as a litigator, right? You do, you know, there isn’t a paralegal right now, so I’ll just do the paralegal work. I’m filing things, I’m looking for things, I’m searching for stuff. These are all, you know, hours a day that lawyers are essentially flushing down the toilet, either billable hours they’re flushing away, or actual business development time that, where they could be producing more, so that’s one example. There’s dozens,

 

Ellen Cohen  [17:05]

yeah,

 

Ellen Cohen  [17:05]

100% I agree with that, and I love to run the metrics on that one, like a little ROI. And it came to me once when I was, when somebody was telling me that they were commuting three hours a day, and I’m going, wow, like, okay, so I lived in LA, you know, they’re commuting three hours a day, I’m like, are you crazy? And then I was like, well, three hours a day, that’s 15 hours a week, that’s 60 hours a month, that’s times 12. Oh my god, you know how much time are you spending in the car? So when I talk to my clients and I say, okay, you’re not delegating, or you’re delegating, and then when it comes back to you, it’s not good enough, so you redo it yourself, right? And then you give it back to them just to redline, but you’re redoing all the work. Let’s just say you’re spending two hours a day doing work that doesn’t belong on your plate, that you should have delegated. You’re redoing somebody else’s work, you’re doing whatever it is, you’re doing work that shouldn’t be on your plate, or that you’re redoing other people’s work, two hours a day, times that you times that out, that’s you know, 10 hours a week, 40 hours a month, you know, times 12, you know, whatever, you can run the numbers, and then it’s

 

Steve Fretzin  [18:12]

an extra week a month that you are throwing away, you could have a five week month every month, if you,

 

Ellen Cohen  [18:18]

that’s right,

 

Steve Fretzin  [18:18]

get rid of those two hours,

 

Ellen Cohen  [18:19]

1212, it’s 12 weeks, and imagine if I said you have three months more time to do your work or three months to take off, like people, like I’m blown away, and okay, let’s just say it’s one hour, you’re wasting one hour, you know, and then you end up with six weeks, I’m sorry, but who wouldn’t want six weeks of time, and so that for them is really like the head explosion, you know, and that really gets them to think differently, because there is truth around that, and you’re talking about, you know, billable hours, you know, what is the benefit financially for them, not just time wise, so think about it in a really practical, you know, financial or you know personal time way it can really have a big impact. And so, how are you going to find an hour in your day, maybe five minutes at a clip, maybe it’s 15 minutes at a clip, but how are you going to find that additional time so you can buy that additional free time or more money, you know, or be able to build, you know, build more hours, whatever.

 

Steve Fretzin  [19:26]

And sometimes you have to invest in a system or people or tech or something to get your time back. So, as an example, you know, people spend a significant amount of time with me and my classes I teach on Tuesday mornings in conjunction with one on ones, they look at that time, and they go, “That’s a lot of time, Steve. I’m busy, I’m a busy lawyer. Well, all right, so let’s do the math on, you know, 200 300 hours a year of business development that’s, you know, ineffective, or the opportunity lost because you’re not doing it effectively. So, there’s the time, and there’s the opportunity costs, and the loss. Or you put in your time with me for six months or whatever, learn these skills, and then you’re doing everything as efficiently as you can. That’s one example of, you know, training an associate, right, getting someone under you that might be a first or second year that has a lot to learn, but you invest some time with them, and then eventually you don’t have to micromanage them anymore, they’re just kind of running with your stuff, and now what? Now you get those two hours, three hours back a day that you know where you were doing that kind of level work. So it’s, I’m not saying any of this is easy, but I’m suggesting that it’s something that people need to really consider as important.

 

Ellen Cohen  [20:37]

That’s right. What is that book I was just trying to look, my look over here. 10x is easier than 2x Yeah, I think it’s from, like, Dan. Yeah, Dan Harrison, I can’t remember his last name, but 10x is easier than 2x is the simple proposition that to work twice as hard to make twice as much money is insanely difficult, but if you have to think expansively about, like, how can I change my business so that I’m 10 times more effective? You have to stop thinking about jerking. You can’t work 10 times harder. So, what would you do differently? You have to really start thinking fundamentally, like going down to the brass tacks, about, you know, what would I do differently? What do I outsource? What do I stop doing? Who do I hire? Where is the best use of my time? What is my expertise? And it’s really a brilliant way of thinking about it, and that’s exactly what you’re talking about in your course, but yours is obviously focused for lawyers, and how do you 10x your time in a very methodical way?

 

Steve Fretzin  [21:37]

Yeah, I think that’s Dan Sullivan, he’s done incredible work for as long as I can remember.

 

Ellen Cohen  [21:42]

Yeah,

 

Steve Fretzin  [21:42]

the thing, too, like just thinking about time management. And first of all, when I teach a class, just same thing with peer advisory, right? The groups that you run, I run Rainmaker round tables, and you know, the class I run, for example, if I had to take each of those individual attorneys and teach them, you know, six months, 90 minutes a week, individually, right, to learn business development. I mean, there’s my, there’s all my time gone, essentially, right. Even working with about 20 lawyers a year, plus they’re not getting the camaraderie, they’re not getting the role play, and the back and forth, like I had them practice their infomercials today as a group, and get feedback, what they liked, what they didn’t like suggestions, and it’s incredible, right? So, I don’t think I don’t think you know we need to look at everything we can do to, you know, to 10x instead of 2x and there are ways to do it to automate things into, into, you know, group people together. I was in New York last week, and look, I’m not trying to take away from any one on one time with my clients, they can meet with me one on one anytime they want, but I got them together for drinks, so they get to meet each other. I got to meet all of them, and it took an hour and a half. It was fantastic, and it was so much fun. But if I had to meet with them, six people individually, well, that’s, you know, six hours, which is fine. That would have been okay too. I thought this would be more fun, but it just, we have to consider, how are we, how are we being effective with what we’re doing our time.

 

Ellen Cohen  [23:06]

Yep, absolutely. Community is important.

 

Steve Fretzin  [23:08]

Kind of the last direction I want to go with you is around just any other practical systems, self-management habits that you found to be effective for your clients, you know, maybe when they’re, you know, dealing with stress or turmoil, how do they, you know, overload? How do they get through that?

 

Ellen Cohen  [23:24]

I don’t want to, like, you know, answer a different question, but, but I want to throw out that one of the biggest issues that lawyers have with, and we sort of touched on this, but I just really want to emphasize the issue about perfectionism, and how perfectionism is really especially dangerous for lawyers, and it can have such a huge impact on productivity, and the fear of not being absolutely perfect is, you know, almost comes from self-limiting beliefs, but it is such a drain on the system and creates so much stress rather than thinking about what just needs to be good enough. What I mean, everything needs to be accurate. I mean, there’s no question accuracy is, you know, like that is that is like a barrier to entry, right? But not everything needs to be a masterpiece. Some things, they, you know, so what needs to be excellent rather than perfect. But I just want to talk about how that mindset that drive is what happens, and causes people to stress out, and that causes people to overwork, and that causes substance abuse, that causes all kinds of burnout, and so it’s really important to be cautious about your mindset about your work, and I have a continuing legal education course on the neuroscience of stress and how to get into a state of competent, how to get into a state of relaxation, not relaxation, but well-being, competency, and you know the neuroscience of stress and how it impacts your ability to be productive, and when you’re stressed. When you’re in fight or flight, when you’re in your sympathetic nervous system, you actually cannot neurologically think clearly, and it elevates your risk of malpractice, making mistakes, errors, reactivity, emotional responses that are not in line, whatever, you cannot work as efficiently, so that leads to your question, so it’s really about, you know, one, you need to take breaks, that’s essential. Taking lunch is not, you know, is not a leisure thing. It’s actually to shut down your brain and allow it to have that moment to re to relax and recom, you know, be able to, like, sort of shut down all the windows. There’s a whole science around that as well, but not even get into that, making sure that you’re taking that time to take care of yourself. I mean, these are really, you know, very anecdotal, and you know, everybody’s talked about self-care, but I can’t stress it enough. We

 

Steve Fretzin  [25:53]

talk about it, but are we doing it right? How are we doing it? My wife said to me, she’s off for the summer as a teacher, and she’s like, “Do you want to go to the gym this afternoon? I’m like, “Yes, thank you for asking. Right, so I’m going to get up from my desk, I’m going to go, and I’m going to do some rehab on my shoulder, and I’m going to do some exercise, and I’m going to get, you know, the stress out and move around and do my thing. So important. And so I think, you know, eating, sleeping, exercise, taking breaks. I have breaks put into my schedule, so that I don’t run through, because I’ll have seven to 10 meetings a day, and if I didn’t have breaks put in there, you know, I no good. So, any other specific examples of how people can unwind or unstress when they’re in that moment of fight or flight.

 

Ellen Cohen  [26:42]

Yeah, in fact, I always think I have a back here. One of my, you know, one of my books is Brendan Burchard, who talks about, you know, high-performance habits. He’s a really high-powered, very, very influential executive coach, and he’s one of the things that he always talks about is no matter what, at five minutes to the hour, he kept up and walks around. It is like a non-negotiable for him. And so, just taking that moment to get up and walk around, I talked about lunch breaks, doing something that brings you joy and passion, something that makes you happy, something that makes you smile. And scrolling on your phone is probably not the answer, because some people like, oh, that’s my reward, but it can be very distracting, particularly if you’re doing it in the middle of the day, in the middle of your work, but trying to find things that bring you joy and happiness. Some people like meditation, some people like to journal, some people just like to walk around and socialize, we talked about you talked about the importance of socializing, so walking around and connecting with people in your, in it at work, or if you have a dog, I don’t, my dog, and I walk around the neighborhood, and I’ve met my entire neighborhood through my dog, you know, and just that moment of smiling and being happy for just, you know, 10 minutes,

 

Steve Fretzin  [28:00]

yeah, really great. I love it. So, let me ask you one last question. That is, what’s Ellen’s big mistake?

 

Ellen Cohen  [28:06]

Oh gosh, I think one of my biggest mistakes was so I was negotiating a deal for my next role when I was at one of the companies that I was at, my ego got in the way, and it was very, very, very, very stressed, and my ego got in the way, and I was highly reactive, highly emotional, and I did not, I did not farm it out, I did not hire a lawyer who I should have hired to help to negotiate deal for me for my own, you know, next thing, and I got too emotionally wrapped up in it, and I ended up quitting in a fit of ego, and after I did it, the next like three hours later, I was like, “Oh, I made a mistake. Oh my gosh, I quit, and I called back, and the presidents had already offered it to somebody else.

 

Steve Fretzin  [28:52]

Wow, wow,

 

Ellen Cohen  [28:54]

they’d already called in a consultant, and they’re like, “It’s too late. Do

 

Steve Fretzin  [28:56]

you know the story about Larry David at Saturday Night

 

Ellen Cohen  [29:00]

Live? No, you

 

Steve Fretzin  [29:01]

know, Larry David Seinfeld core enthusiasm. Okay, so he quit Saturday Night Live, like in a huff. He got mad because they weren’t choosing his sketches. He quit in, like, in a big scene, and then he was talking to his friend, and it was like, well, just go back and pretend like it never happened, or that you were joking, or whatever. And he did. I don’t, and I think it worked. I think he got back. I don’t know, but and then, of course, that was a Seinfeld episode with George, where he did that. No, I should

 

Ellen Cohen  [29:25]

have done that. Oh,

 

Steve Fretzin  [29:28]

because, right, because they hired somebody,

 

Ellen Cohen  [29:30]

but you know what, it was the best thing that ever happened to me, because, because of that, it was 2008 2000 and it was the worst time to get a new job, and while I was looking for a job, I got certified as a coach.

 

Steve Fretzin  [29:42]

Okay, well, there you go. Yeah. So, and the other thing is, maybe the realization of the ego and all of that, and recognizing, you know, when you get into that situation again, maybe you need to hire somebody to help you. Then I try to be that perfectionist lawyer.

 

Ellen Cohen  [29:56]

Exactly, take the emotion out of it. When you get too emotional, you’re gonna make, like I said. Before, when you’re emotional, when you’re reactive, when you’re a US pathetic nervous system, you make mistakes, you can’t experience

 

Steve Fretzin  [30:08]

well. Listen, let’s thank our wonderful sponsors, of course, Pimcon, the greatest personal injury mastermind conference coming up in October. Check that out, everybody, if you’re a personal injury attorney or work with them. Also, our friends at Rankings IO, terrific digital agency, Lex reception. As I said earlier, let’s not pick up our calls, let’s have someone professional do it, make sure that they’re vetted for us. And lawyer.com great directory, great people over there. Hi to Colleen. If people want to get in touch with you, Ellen, they want to check out what you’ve written and what you’ve put out there. What are the best ways for them to get in touch?

 

Ellen Cohen  [30:42]

Well, there’s my website, but usually the thing that I keep the most up to date is my LinkedIn, and it’s obviously linkedin.com forward slash in forward slash EBC coaching, and you can find me there. I write a lot of articles, and I’m up to date, you know, ping me, connect, and I also offer complimentary consultations, so if you want to talk about anything we’ve talked about here, or getting promoted, influence, impact, getting a seat at the table, confidence, that stuff, I’m here.

 

Steve Fretzin  [31:13]

All right, you’re here, all right. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show, sharing your wisdom, and I know that there are lawyers listening that are feeling much of what we talked about today, and the goal and the hope is that they took a note, or that they took some things to heart that they’re going to change, and at least you know, make some actions, take some actions to resolve. That’s really what this, what this show is all about. So, thank you so much, appreciate you.

 

Ellen Cohen  [31:35]

Thank you, I appreciate it.

 

Steve Fretzin  [31:36]

Yeah, and thank you everybody for hanging out with Ellen and I for the last 30 minutes, helping you to be that lawyer, confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker. I’m Steve Fretzin. And take care, be safe, and be well. And we will talk again so very soon.

 

Narrator  [31:53]

Thanks for listening to Be That Lawyer: Life-Changing Strategies and Resources for Growing a Successful Law Practice. Visit Steve’s website, fretzin.com, for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes.