The People-First Approach to Building Effective Privacy Programs

Intro 0:01

Welcome to the She Said Privacy/He Said Security podcast. Like any good marriage, we will debate, evaluate, and sometimes quarrel about how privacy and security impact business in the 20-first century.

Jodi Daniels 0:21

Hi, Jodi Daniels here. I’m the founder and CEO of Red Clover Advisors, a certified women’s privacy consultancy. I’m a privacy consultant and certified informational privacy professional, providing practical privacy advice to overwhelmed companies.

Justin Daniels 0:36

Hello, I am Justin Daniels. I am a shareholder and corporate M and A and tech transaction lawyer at the law firm Baker Donaldson, advising companies in the deployment and scaling of technology. Since data is critical to every transaction, I help clients make informed business decisions while managing data privacy and cybersecurity risk. And when needed, I lead the legal cyber data breach response brigade.

Jodi Daniels 1:00

And this episode is brought to you by Red Clover Advisors. We help companies comply with data privacy laws and establish customer trust, so that they can grow and nurture integrity. We work with companies in a variety of fields, including technology, e-commerce, professional services, and digital media. In short, we use data privacy to transform the way companies do business. Together, we’re creating a future where there’s greater trust between companies and consumers. To learn more and to check out our best-selling book, Data Reimagined: Building Trust One Byte at a Time, visit redcloveradvisors.com Our book was picked for a book club. I think that’s kind of fun that people want to read about privacy and trust in a book club.

Justin Daniels 1:44

Maybe they can get you to come and give comments on what it was like to write it and go through that process.

Jodi Daniels 1:52

Oh, I think they want to hear you because picking the title and the cover was so much fun.

Justin Daniels 1:56

Yes, that’s why I am going to have AI help me write my new screenplay. I survived writing a book with my spells.

Jodi Daniels 2:04

Good luck with that. Well, today we have Chris Tarbell, who is a leading privacy, cyber, and data strategy executive, who currently serves as the chief privacy officer for VERSANT Media. Chris has an extensive background, and prior to his current role, he was associate general counsel for Fanatics and the Walt Disney Company, where he advised global businesses on compliance with domestic and international privacy, data security, and related consumer protection laws. And most recently, Chris served as senior counsel at the leading law firm of Kelly Dry and Warren, where he also supported clients in numerous regulatory investigations related to marketing and advertising, and we are so delighted, Chris, that you are here with us today.

Chris Tarbell 2:47

Thanks so much, Justin. Very excited to be here. It’s been a long time coming, and very feel very fortunate that you guys asked me to be here.

Jodi Daniels 2:56

Now, I, I, I know, Justin, you are going to get this podcast started for this part. You said, “Oh, that’s so fun! I had to play on a music song. But Chris, I think what’s so exciting is what is behind you. I love the story of the special drawing that is behind you. So, if you are listening, you’re going to have to go and check out the video so you can actually see what I am talking about because you can see it in the picture. So, Chris, before we dive in, you got to talk to us about the drawing.

Chris Tarbell 3:23

Yes, it is by far and away the most asked about thing since I joined Versant. Has nothing to do with my background, my life, anything. Here’s what is this, and I will give the listeners and viewers a description. It is a hand drawn picture jointly by my son and spouse, which will be the sequel to Justin’s screenplay, How to Draw a Picture with Your Spouse, of sadness from the movie Inside Out, and you know, having worked at Disney for a long time, one of the common questions you get asked, like as an icebreaker at events and things like that, is like, What is your favorite Disney character? And this is mine. And I don’t know. I think this Inside Out movie, despite my prior, you know, work history, is I think just such an amazing testament to like complex human emotions and how to deal with them, and how they interact together, and just like super topic that’s accessible to people of all ages. And so, my for my first date, first my partner Melinda and my son Sam drew this for me, and I keep it here as a good reminder about sort of how hard things and happy things often go together, and you need to have both to really appreciate things.

Jodi Daniels 4:45

I love it. Thank you. Thank you for sharing.

Chris Tarbell 4:48

Yeah, of course.

Jodi Daniels 4:49

All right, Justin, you get to kick us off now.

Justin Daniels 4:51

Okay.

Jodi Daniels 4:52

Out of sadness and into Happyville.

Chris Tarbell 4:54

That’s right.

Justin Daniels 4:56

So, Chris, why don’t you tell us about your career journey a little bit?

Chris Tarbell 5:00

Yeah, sure. I had a very, very nonlinear legal career, and I actually almost feel bad sometimes when I try very hard to like help mentor law students that are like, “Well, tell me how to get into privacy. And I’m like, “Really, I am the worst example on like a practical level in Height I’ll Debtness. I did. I won’t bore you with all the stuff I did before law school, but I ended up going when I graduated. I ended up working at a big law firm doing like class action defense, and then by the time I was like seventh year, I had clerked on the Ninth Circuit, and the judge I worked for was very very adamant about like getting people exposed to like the legal work that is like the machinery that makes communities work every day. And he had been a public defender and had worked in a criminal system. And so at that point, I was like, hey, you know, I’d really love some like experience, and so I ended up quitting my job, and I went to work as a DA for free for almost two years, and it was amazing. I thought I would never leave. I loved just the whole entire process of working in the criminal justice system, and I loved both sides. I loved defense work. I loved prosecutorial work. But my partner Melinda, who I have been together with, this is our 30th year together. She was traveling a lot, and I we decided to relocate to Los Angeles. And I had two former colleagues from my days working in civil litigation who were starting a privacy program at a media company, and they said, “Hey, we think you would love this. I was very interested, like in a very nerdy way, because I had done a lot of Fourth Amendment work, and so I went and started a privacy lawyer, and I’ve been doing privacy work ever since. And I’ve been at different places. I’ve been an in-house lawyer for a long time. I had a wonderful time as an outside lawyer, most recently working at Kelly Drive. But I have done done all sorts of things.

Jodi Daniels 7:18

Chris, I think what makes your background so interesting is what you just shared. You have done, you know, outside counsel work and as an in-house privacy leader. How do you think those experiences shape and influence how to build a privacy program?

Chris Tarbell 7:39

Yeah, I absolutely think they’re more complementary than people might expect, and I am feel so grateful having done both. I mean, some of the obvious things I think is being an in-house lawyer is a very unique job experience, and I would say gives you sort of two practical things that I think make you an even better outside lawyer. One is you’re often thinking practically, and you’re focused on what the business objectives are. Now it’s easy to say that I think because you hear that a lot. I think one part of that is that you could go one step third or further about that because our business teams that we support as in-house lawyers are not thinking for themselves; they are often thinking about for consumers. And so, thinking like a business person is really thinking about like what is the best consumer experience. And I tend to think in privacy, especially good consumer experience is good compliance. And so, I think bringing a set of practical sort of everyday approach and how best to do these things in the real world is something that gives makes a good outside lawyer. I believe you there are plenty of them out there, but you bring a sense of that having done in house work. The also the other thing I think about in-house work that makes you better outside lawyer. Is you realize how much, despite how efficient we’ve become, how technology has revolutionized the way we do work, it is still a people business. It is about what relationships you have, who you can call, who trusts you and who you trust, and that’s not altogether that different. I think, and that’s like a personality thing in part too. Like that’s just how I approach life, but that is something that I think you don’t see as much until you get to be an in-house lawyer. But what I think people miss often, so that that sort of trajectory, being an in-house and then becoming an outside lawyer, is very often like, oh, that’s a good path and makes you better. But like, what’s interesting is I do think really good outside counsel make you even an even better in-house lawyer. I think you know one thing that in young in-house lawyers have a hard time doing is just. Being an advocate, think advocacy sometimes gets lost in favor of just getting stuff done. But I think the best way to get stuff done is oftentimes you have to advocate to different people about the best way to do things, whether that’s senior executives or regular everyday engineers or all this stuff. Just advocacy in general, and writing clearly, and all the things that come with advocacy. The other thing I was actually laughing with a former colleague me the other day that I said I did not anticipate is how much business generation as an outside lawyer helps you be a good in-house lawyer. Being an in-house lawyer is a lot about being a part of the business, I have to advocate for things that are not legal related at all. Like, what is the best tooling out there for me to help with my compliance program? What about like people management and head count and all those kinds of things where you’re advocating not just for a legal position foot, but for budget and human resources and for like approach to things and I think so that a lot of that is just being a good way of helping understand the importance of what we do and that’s the same thing about doing outside counsel business generation so I don’t know. The one has really helped me be better at the other. I hope I still have a long ways to go. And anybody that says that doesn’t is probably missing the point. But both have been really helpful in the other.
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