Tracy LaLonde: Achieving Joy in the Legal Grind: From Delegation Tips to Work-Life Boundaries

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Tracy LaLonde discuss:

• Dynamics of trust in professional and client relationships
• Stress management and work-life balance strategies
• Effective delegation and communication for legal professionals
• Maintaining integrity and transparency in business

Key Takeaways:

• Trust grows through intentional, proactive communication, where even small gestures like timely responses build respect, while ignoring issues can erode trust and risk client loyalty.
• Finding personal joy amid work demands means setting boundaries (like leaving office on time) and developing discipline to prioritize non-work activities, even when emails and tasks pile up.
• Incremental delegation—starting with small tasks and expanding—builds confidence and trust, allowing the delegator to guide quality without an “all-or-nothing” approach.
• Acknowledging when personal matters affect responsiveness and communicating transparently with clients, even with a brief update, repairs trust and reassures them of quality service.

“Integrity is everything. And I define integrity as doing what you say you’re going to do when you said you were going to do it.” —  Tracy LaLonde

Got a challenge growing your law practice? Email me at steve@fretzin.com with your toughest question, and I’ll answer it live on the show—anonymously, just using your first name!

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Episode References: 

Why We Sleep: Unlocking the Power of Sleep and Dreams by Matthew Walker

About Tracy LaLonde: Tracy LaLonde, an engaging trainer and speaker with over 30 years of experience, is dedicated to revolutionizing engagement in law firms. She offers practical, easy-to-digest guidance backed by cutting-edge research that will make a lasting impact on lawyers and business professionals. Through Joychiever’s Hierarchy of Engagement, as well as her comprehensive courses, Tracy equips law firms with tools to boost engagement, foster trust, minimize burnout, bolster financial performance, and create a culture where people thrive. With her dynamic approach, Tracy is setting a new standard for the legal industry.

Connect with Tracy LaLonde:  

Website: https://www.joychiever.com/

Email: tracy@joychiever.com

Book: Trust Me: The Insider’s Guide to Being the Go-To Person at Work

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tracylalonde/

Connect with Steve Fretzin:

LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

Instagram: @fretzinsteve

Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.

Website: Fretzin.com

Email: Steve@Fretzin.com

Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!

YouTube: Steve Fretzin

Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.

FULL TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] Steve Fretzin: Hey there, we’re heading into a new year and I’d like to change up how I open the show. Each episode I’ll be sharing a quick question and answer on your greatest challenges in growing a successful law practice. Additionally, I’d like to hear what you’re struggling with and answer your questions directly on the show.

[00:00:15] Steve Fretzin: Please email me at steve at Fretzin dot com with something you’ve been struggling with and I’ll answer it directly on the show only using your first name. Let’s try this out and see how it goes. Thanks and enjoy the show. Hey, just want to take a moment to answer a question from someone from the be that lawyer audience.

[00:00:31] Steve Fretzin: This is Jerry from San Diego, California. He asks, I don’t have time to do business development. How do I fix this? Well that’s never happened or I’ve never heard that before, Jerry. I appreciate you asking the question. Obviously very difficult to do business development without. Right. That’s really the most important thing is, is if you’re building 2000 hours, you’re doing administrative tasks, marketing tasks, all these different things, you’re never going to get business development done.

[00:00:55] Steve Fretzin: It’s always going to be pushed down to the bottom. So I’m going to give you two suggestions that are both really helpful and help my clients significantly to get to business development and create the time that you need to do it. Number one is read the book, getting things done. I’ve been harping about this for years.

[00:01:09] Steve Fretzin: It really made me into an efficient beast of a person with a zero inbox and no paper and just incredibly organized. So read the book, getting things done. It’s going to give you systems and processes to follow that will help you to be more successful. To create an open up that time it’s like you have a system for everything you do from brushing your teeth to showering to how you run a trial yet you don’t have a process for how you manage your time so that’s the first suggestion the second one is going to be to actually track your day think about starting at 6 a.

[00:01:40] Steve Fretzin: m. and ending at 7 p. m. and literally track what you do all day from when you go to the bathroom to when you’re doing scrolling on linkedin to the work that you’re actually producing. And see if you can identify things that are time wasters, time suckers that you can eliminate or delegate or figure out, hey, I shouldn’t be doing this 20 an hour task when I’m charging 500 an hour.

[00:02:02] Steve Fretzin: So, couple thoughts, Jerry, for you on how to get organized and really make time your best friend, not your enemy. And hopefully this is helpful everybody. And so check out the, be that lawyer. We’re got coming up this great episode coming up next. So enjoy the show, everybody. And we’ll we’ll see you soon.

[00:02:22] Narrator: You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Branson, we’ll take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Branson.

[00:02:42] Narrator: Fretzin. 

[00:02:44] Steve Fretzin: Hey everybody, welcome back to the Be That Lawyer with Fretzin podcast. Super excited to have you. Listening today, whether we’re hanging out in the backseat of your car or we’re hanging out on your earbuds as you walk your dog, whatever case might be, we love that we’re with you twice a week, every single week to help you to be that lawyer, confident, organized and a skilled Rainmaker.

[00:03:03] Steve Fretzin: You know, one thing that we talk about sort of tangentially, but we don’t really get into the weeds enough on is client relationships and more importantly, trust. And so I’ve got a trust expert with me today, Tracy, how you doing? Good, Steve. Thanks for having me. I’m so happy that you’re here. We had a terrific conversation prior to us coming on and airing this, and I was just super excited to have you on.

[00:03:23] Steve Fretzin: And as everyone knows, we start with our quote of the show, so that’s what we’re going to do today. Trust is like the air we breathe. When it’s present, nobody really notices. When it’s absent, everybody notices, unless you’re alone, then not so much. That’s a Warren Buffett quote, and so obviously, trust is your jam, but But talk to us about that quote, I’m assuming I know why you like it, but I’d like to hear your take on it anyway, and welcome to the show.

[00:03:47] Tracy LaLonde: Yeah, thank you. You know, trust is just one of those things that I think is highly taken for granted, just like the air we breathe, and the minute that it’s not there, then it becomes all consuming, and so it’s a large driver of why I wanted to spend energy and effort helping people be better at it. 

[00:04:07] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, I’m one of these people that I think trust too easily.

[00:04:11] Steve Fretzin: And I get sucked into people’s worlds that I just like think they’re great and I trust them. And then I get burned and I’m like, what did I do? I gotta, you know, have a little bit more of a wall up. But is that the case where there’s some people that just that don’t trust and some people that trust too easily?

[00:04:24] Tracy LaLonde: Well, yes, that is. But let me tell you, because I, that’s the age old question is. Should trust be given or should trust be earned? 

[00:04:34] Steve Fretzin: And 

[00:04:35] Tracy LaLonde: so I actually don’t want you to stop doing what you’re doing. I want you to keep doing that. And yes, maybe don’t trust quite as far initially. 

[00:04:44] Steve Fretzin: How about trust, but verify? Is that the case?

[00:04:46] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. 

[00:04:46] Tracy LaLonde: Right. So I think we take the baby steps until that trust is established. But what’s interesting, and very few people realize this, is that the, the gesture of giving trust is actually a physiological phenomenon. So you decide to trust me with something that’s not too risky. When you do that in my brain, it releases oxytocin, which is the love or connection hormone.

[00:05:15] Tracy LaLonde: And it incensed me to want to trust you in return. So I do that. And then that releases oxytocin for you. So then you trust me back and I trust you. So, you know, people say, Oh, I trust has to be earned. I’m like, yes, yes, 

[00:05:29] Steve Fretzin: but 

[00:05:30] Tracy LaLonde: Yeah, because we don’t give an opportunity for that physiological phenomenon to actually create that bond.

[00:05:37] Tracy LaLonde: So the trust, but verify or the trust in small steps. So I’m not going to give you, you know, my bank account, but I may loan you 50 bucks, right? You know, and right now I can see kind of thing. 

[00:05:49] Steve Fretzin: Hey everybody, so you’re checking out my friend Trace Lulan. She’s the chief joy chiever at joy chiever. And so joy is sort of number one, but then talking about trust and I want to hear about both, but let’s get into your background a little bit.

[00:06:02] Steve Fretzin: How did you become a joy chiever? 

[00:06:06] Tracy LaLonde: Yeah, well, I have over 30 years in the training and development space. The 1st in the 90s 1st part of that I was in a high tech consulting area and then since 2000, I’ve been in the law firm world and when you do what I do for a living, you invariably teach a number of topics.

[00:06:20] Tracy LaLonde: So I’ve done things like business development and management training and obviously now trust. And Joyachiever came about in 2018 because I had survived a period of burnout. I have been traveling for 40 weeks a year to three cities a week, loved the work but the lifestyle was killing me kind of thing.

[00:06:36] Tracy LaLonde: And so I embarked on a path to try to help prevent people from falling prey to my same fate. So Joyachiever is really about helping high performing or high achieving individuals deliberately build more joy in their lives. 

[00:06:53] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, and I think there’s something going on in the legal space where, I don’t know if it’s the billable hour, if it’s the grind, I mean, lawyers have never been busier, from my perspective, than I’ve ever seen them, and I feel like they’re missing joy, like, we can talk about trust, but I mean, take a moment on the joy, because I, it’s hard to get joy When you’re, you know, just in the grind on the hamster wheel running as hard as you can.

[00:07:17] Tracy LaLonde: Yeah, well, and we are used to living a checklist of achieving almost from the day we were born, you know? Yeah. And I think truly for me, how I look at it is, is I don’t think that we have a deep or robust enough understanding of self such that when we have an opportunity to recognize that we have a moment to make a choice that we can choose for joy.

[00:07:42] Tracy LaLonde: Because we don’t actually know what might make us happy because we’ve gotten into this habit of defaulting towards work. And by the way, I’m guilty as everybody else on this. So, you know, the simplest of examples is I’ve committed that I’m going to leave my desk at 530 today. Because I’m going to have my evening plans, have dinner with my family, what have you, but then those emails come in and I spend two more hours at my desk just by habit.

[00:08:05] Tracy LaLonde: What I want people to realize is that’s a moment where you can choose for joy. So, some nights you do those emails, but other nights you actually can shut things down and go with your family. So, it’s super simple. It’s enabling people to be more proactive and intentional around making those choices. 

[00:08:22] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, I think there might be something to be said about discipline.

[00:08:25] Steve Fretzin: I think there’s a lack of discipline in how we, you know, not balance work life balance because I believe in work life integration. However, there’s a point where, you know, you have to switch off, you know, that work side to go and have a lovely dinner with your family or to go to the game and really be invested in your child’s soccer game or whatever it might be without continually looking at your emails and your phones and just like you have to, and the discipline to do that I think is the tricky part.

[00:08:52] Tracy LaLonde: Yeah, well, because we also live in this ASAP culture, you know, with high levels of responsiveness and needing to be connected to the phone and we’re not having enough. Intentional transparent conversations with the people who are expecting responses, i. e. clients, you know, so even chatting with clients and saying.

[00:09:10] Tracy LaLonde: What is your expectation on a Friday afternoon when you email me or when that email comes in asking in that moment, like, sure, I agree that we definitely need to give an acknowledgement the case. Steve, I got your message. I’m on it, but on it doesn’t necessarily have to mean I do it tonight. So asking that question back of is this something you need urgently or can my team get to it on Monday?

[00:09:30] Tracy LaLonde: Yeah, and it’s just that simple moment that I think we aren’t taking you know Aren’t expressing with folks in our lives who are asking things of us. 

[00:09:40] Steve Fretzin: I think I have a good transition So you want to get out of doing something that maybe is interrupting your joyful time? And you need to delegate it to an associate.

[00:09:50] Steve Fretzin: You need to delegate it down to someone, but you don’t necessarily trust. You see how I did that? They’re going to get it done. And so that may be why a lot of attorneys say, Oh, it’s just easier for me to get it done. And they end up doing a lot more work than they need to do because they’re not trusting the delegation.

[00:10:07] Steve Fretzin: And so let’s maybe start there and then work our way through trust, because I think that’s where a lot of lawyers and a lot of professionals generally Miss the mark on how to remove work and remove things from their life due to a lack of trust. 

[00:10:22] Tracy LaLonde: Right. Well, and in some ways it goes back to this trust given versus earned is either way, they’re not giving that person an opportunity to earn it.

[00:10:34] Tracy LaLonde: So they’re not giving a moment of trust when I gave people an opportunity to earn it. And so I think that individual has to really assess of what’s the obstacle, you know, what, and it’s typically driven by fear. They’re not going to do it in the right time frame. They’re not going to do it as well.

[00:10:50] Tracy LaLonde: They’re not going to do it the way I would do it and all are fair, but it comes down basically to communication and the way that we delegate. And as we probably both have had experiences. Not a lot of people agree to delegation. 

[00:11:04] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, no doubt. And I think the other part is that delegation isn’t an all or nothing thing.

[00:11:10] Steve Fretzin: It’s something where you need to start where there might be some micromanagement involved on the first thing you delegate to see how that goes, that goes badly. Okay, we worked through it. Then the second time, you know, maybe a little less management, a little less management. Eventually someone’s totally autonomous.

[00:11:28] Steve Fretzin: And be able to do and crush the work that you’re handing them left and right and I think there are some people are just missing that there’s some training and there’s some process to that. 

[00:11:37] Tracy LaLonde: Yeah well and people go to the space of I don’t want to be a micromanager like you said I think sometimes we delegate tasks that are too big especially.

[00:11:46] Tracy LaLonde: When we’re just getting to know and trust that person. So we’ll delegate to somebody like go write this brief. Okay, wait, hold on. Maybe we should break it down. Why don’t we start with the research? So let’s delegate the research part of it. Then let’s delegate the outline part of it. Then let’s delegate the draft part of it.

[00:12:05] Tracy LaLonde: So that we can build up that trust and it’s not so big. So we don’t actually have to micromanage, if you will. We’re giving an opportunity for dialogue to happen while we’re getting to the end goal, which is the brief. 

[00:12:18] Steve Fretzin: I’m going to give lawyers a bit of a tip here. This might be worth its weight in gold for you all in the 30 minutes we’re together.

[00:12:23] Steve Fretzin: And I’ve helped a lot of attorneys with this. It’s to create a checklist of what your expectations are on something that you delegate or hand off. So that the grammar is checked and the, you know, there’s like four or five, six check boxes that they need that the person you delegated to needs to check off and sign or whatever to before they get it back to you.

[00:12:42] Steve Fretzin: So if your concern is you’re going to give it to them, they’re going to screw it up and then you’re going to have to redo it. For example, there’s a checklist that they can’t turn it into you without that checklist being. So they’ve reviewed it before they’ve turned it into you. So expectations are met simple, but it’s not done.

[00:12:56] Steve Fretzin: And so then you get things back, you go, this person’s an idiot. I’m not going to send it to them again. I’m just going to do it myself. So there are things that you can do to sort of incorporate and build trust. But I think you also have to be. a good manager of that project. 

[00:13:10] Tracy LaLonde: Yeah, I agree. That’s a great idea.

[00:13:12] Tracy LaLonde: Love that. 

[00:13:13] Steve Fretzin: So let me ask you this. There’s earned and there’s given. And as I mentioned, I’m sort of giving more than I’m earning, but I feel like, you know, I also, Test people out like I trust them initially give them the benefit of the doubt and then I sort of test their trust over time that might be in giving them something to do or making a connection for them and seeing how they follow through little things like that.

[00:13:36] Steve Fretzin: How do you kind of like how does it start and where does it go like how do we really build trust. 

[00:13:41] Tracy LaLonde: There’s power in the repetition of it so because of this oxytocin physiological response the more we do with them the deeper the connection comes. Okay. You know, people who’ve worked together for a long time, you know, they almost don’t have to speak anymore or in a marriage or any other kind of relationship, if you will.

[00:14:01] Tracy LaLonde: Yeah. So, you know, repetition is what builds it because that’s what we say, it takes years to develop and moments to lose that idea. But what’s interesting though, is that when, so say, for example, I offered you an opportunity to do something for me and build that trust and you break my trust. Many people think that the onus is on you to repair it.

[00:14:25] Tracy LaLonde: And yes, you do have responsibility to repair. However, so do I. It’s in that same idea, the reciprocal nature of trust. You know, we’re both building it. We both have an opportunity to repair it. And most people don’t think about it that way. And I think about it a couple different ways. Number one, do I not trust everything about what you’ve done?

[00:14:43] Tracy LaLonde: Or is it, you missed the deadline, so I don’t trust your time management. But I do trust the quality of what you’ve delivered. So discerning exactly what it is that I’m not trusting, so that I don’t just write you off, like, well, I’m never going to work with Steve again. That’s not helpful. So I’ve got to figure that out.

[00:15:00] Tracy LaLonde: Then two, I’ve got to tell you that, Hey, Steve, you missed that deadline. That’s a problem for me. Let’s talk about, is it time management or is this just a one off thing? I also have to assess my own culpability. Did I give you the right deadline? Did I give you enough time to make the deadline? Did I keep, was I clear in my conversation around it?

[00:15:17] Tracy LaLonde: So that’s, I think another important. nuance that most people don’t consider. 

[00:15:22] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. 

[00:15:22] Tracy LaLonde: And this idea of giving versus earning is like, you’ve broken it. It’s your fault, your problem. You’ve got to fix like, no, no, we’re in a relationship here with two people. So both have responsibility to try to repair. 

[00:15:33] Steve Fretzin: I mean, I literally just sent out an email this morning to some friends of mine that Had agreed to do something and they haven’t done it and I, my email was, is there something I could have done better to manage this because I’m seeing this isn’t being done and I’m like taking ownership of that, but I’m also like hearing how they’re going to come back to me.

[00:15:54] Steve Fretzin: Like, how are they going to respond to that email? And I think that’s an important part of is that kind of what you’re saying? 

[00:16:00] Tracy LaLonde: Yeah, it’s definitely a part of it, you know, because another factor is how somebody handles it. The situation they’re 

[00:16:07] Steve Fretzin: taking ownership versus like pointing fingers and rejection 

[00:16:10] Tracy LaLonde: exactly So, 

[00:16:12] Steve Fretzin: how do people inadvertently Erode trust how do I mean like like a client that doesn’t trust you anymore a friend that doesn’t trust you anymore I don’t we maybe even realize it’s happened, but it has 

[00:16:25] Tracy LaLonde: yeah exactly.

[00:16:26] Tracy LaLonde: I mean there are a number of ways I mean give you a couple examples One might be something I call the incomplete picture, and so I am not giving you the information you need, 

[00:16:37] Steve Fretzin: or 

[00:16:37] Tracy LaLonde: maybe the information is old, or maybe it’s incomplete, you know, so therefore you learn not to trust me because I’m not giving you all the information that you 

[00:16:45] Steve Fretzin: need.

[00:16:46] Steve Fretzin: Or I might like imagine things that aren’t really there because I’m filling in the gaps that are being left out. Right. Another 

[00:16:53] Tracy LaLonde: something I call the disappearing act, you know, so I delegate something to you. I’m like, oh, come to me with any questions. And then I’m ghost town. You can’t reach me. I seem too busy.

[00:17:04] Tracy LaLonde: You have to keep nagging me for a response. Like, it’s those little ways that help. It’s a lot. Exactly. And all of those put dense. Little dense or the apps and appreciation is something else. You know where you delegate deadlines in our world are expected, but sometimes it requires a lot of effort and sacrifice to meet that deadline.

[00:17:24] Tracy LaLonde: If I don’t acknowledge that effort and sacrifice. That could put a dent in the trust for you. And if I do that repeatedly, like, if I don’t appreciate what you’ve done. Over time, there’s less trust there. You’re not going to trust me as much because I’m not showing you that you’re adding value. 

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[00:18:07] Steve Fretzin: Lawyers have been approaching me asking, what’s the Rainmakers Roundtable? Well, I tell them this is a special place created exclusively for rainmaking lawyers to continue their journey of prosperity. Our program is unique as every member has a significant book of business and is motivated to grow it year after year.

[00:18:24] Steve Fretzin: Where else does this exist? If you’re a managing partner who’s looking to get off your lonely island and talk shop with America’s top Rainmakers, please go to my website, Fretzin. com and apply for membership today. So the best way to restore, and I feel like we’ve kind of covered that a little bit from the standpoint of taking ownership and realizing it’s a mutual thing.

[00:18:44] Steve Fretzin: Are there any other suggestions of when you feel like maybe you’ve been ghosted or that someone hasn’t done what they’re supposed to do, that trust has eroded, how to repair it? 

[00:18:53] Tracy LaLonde: Yeah. The really critical part is conversation. And it sounds so simple, and that’s probably the biggest piece of feedback I give about everything I teach, is that, you know, common sense, not commonly practiced kind of idea, because I think it’s so easy for us to just get lost.

[00:19:09] Tracy LaLonde: Thanks. Bye. ignore or move on to somebody else or just not engage because we don’t want to have the conversation. And that’s just a big problem, especially if you need that person in your life. 

[00:19:22] Steve Fretzin: Something that I talk about quite a bit with my clients is how important it is to keep clients that you have developed happy and loyal and you don’t want them to ever leave.

[00:19:32] Steve Fretzin: And I think trust is a big part of that. And is there something, are there a couple of tips that you would give to say, look, to maintain. Long term loyal clients and relationships. These are some things that you need to do that will continue to make sure they never go anywhere and make sure that they always will call you when there’s a problem.

[00:19:53] Tracy LaLonde: Yeah. I think number one is proactive and intentional communication around all topics. Again, sounds simple, but doesn’t always happen. And not because people are malintended. I think sometimes it just gets busy, you know, we’re trying to close a deal and all of a sudden the bill is ratcheting up and now we get to the end of the month.

[00:20:12] Tracy LaLonde: And it’s three times what we all thought it was going to be, you know, so being mindful of those times when those kinds of activities could happen and even having a conversation up front with a client to say, when we get to this part of the deal, the bill is going to spiral. So, how do you want to want me to communicate with you as this is happening?

[00:20:32] Tracy LaLonde: Or are you okay that you just get it at the end? Or, you know, so being mindful of those moments. In the relationship trajectory that could cause problems or, you know, when things are urgent, what do you want our conversation to be? Or what do you want our communication protocol to be? And by the way, here are the three people that you can reach out to if I, if you can’t find me in the moment, you know, so I think thinking about those crossroads that can be moments where trust can erode and discussing them up front with our clients will go a long way.

[00:21:09] Tracy LaLonde: In persevering the trust 

[00:21:12] Steve Fretzin: i love that and the thing that i want to make sure everybody takes away from this is that we need to be obviously intentional about communication setting expectations how we follow through and execute on things these are all like little stepping stones that if you miss one or miss two you may not even realize it because there may be so many in there.

[00:21:35] Steve Fretzin: Is there like a plan for building trust? Is there a process that people should be using or is it just something they should just do naturally? 

[00:21:42] Tracy LaLonde: I don’t know if there’s a plan necessarily other than, you know, there are a number of pillars and you’ve just talked about integrity. You know, integrity is one of them.

[00:21:50] Tracy LaLonde: Competence is another. Transparent communication is another. You know, all those kinds of pillars of trust, I think, are things to focus on. And the way that they play out on a day to day basis to be, it’s more about being diligent and mindful than a plan per se. 

[00:22:11] Steve Fretzin: I mean, it might just, I mean, a big part of it is, and I’m noticing this people breaking commitments.

[00:22:16] Steve Fretzin: They agree to something. Oh, yeah, I’ll make that introduction for you, Tracy, you know. And you know, crickets, right? And then you’ve got to follow up with me. I don’t respond to your email. I’m busy. Okay. You know, these are the little things that we just assume that people are okay with, and they’re not. And I’m not.

[00:22:32] Steve Fretzin: And it’s affecting how I feel about somebody and my interest in wanting to continue that relationship. And the relationship could be the difference between, you know, that sending them a lot of business or coaching them or whatever it might be. So I think we, you know, talk to, talk a little bit about the importance of commitments as it relates to trust.

[00:22:51] Tracy LaLonde: I mean, integrity is everything. And I define integrity as doing what you say you’re going to do when you send you, we’re going to do it simple definition. And if you don’t have integrity in the way that you respond and interact with people, you’re never going to have their trust. So the relationship will become transactional and that client may need you for a particular experience.

[00:23:15] Tracy LaLonde: But as soon as somebody else comes along that does demonstrate who does demonstrate integrity, you’re done. Forget it. So you can be the best person with the best experience and expertise. However, it’s how you are to work with that drives the longevity of a client relationship. 

[00:23:33] Steve Fretzin: Alright, I’m gonna throw a surprise question at you in the form of a role play.

[00:23:36] Steve Fretzin: All right? We’re gonna do this because there’s lawyers that are gonna get a lot of value outta this particular scenario. So hopefully you’re up for it. ’cause I’m throwing this out at you outta nowhere. So I’m gonna, I’m gonna play the role of an attorney. We’re not really role playing, we’re just gonna talk it out.

[00:23:47] Steve Fretzin: But I’m an attorney. I have been going through some personal things. I haven’t been responsive to one of my most important clients. They’ve emailed me, I’ve taken days to get back. I’ve been very sharp. I just haven’t been myself because of things that they don’t even know are happening with me behind the scenes and I don’t necessarily want to share that personal stuff.

[00:24:06] Steve Fretzin: And that has eroded the relationship a little bit and I cannot lose this client and I’ve got to figure out how to resolve it. How do you, what would you consider you when you’re consulting me as the attorney talking to you through this problem? What are you telling me? 

[00:24:22] Tracy LaLonde: Yeah, I am telling you to go have a discussion with the client.

[00:24:28] Steve Fretzin: Okay. 

[00:24:29] Tracy LaLonde: It’s a mea culpa of sorts. Number one. Get on the phone. Absolutely. This is not an email. This is not a text. This has got to be live. Yep. You can see face to face even better because people will take in that you are sincere, but they at least have to hear your voice. And I find that most decent human beings will give someone grace once.

[00:24:53] Tracy LaLonde: Someone grace once, unless it’s a brand new relationship, maybe not, but they’ll give you grace. So you’ve got to acknowledge it and you’ve got to own it. Also, I need you to acknowledge the impact that this has had on the client, because the minute that you do that, you know, if I’m doing this to you, Stephen, like, you know, I realized.

[00:25:17] Tracy LaLonde: I’ve not been super responsive. I’ve had some things going on. You gotta give whatever the reason is. I say, yada, yada. It matters. But then I say, but I say, I realize that has put you behind. Or I realized that left you scrambling for information or I realized and so it’s that acknowledgement of the inconvenience that that has caused you will help also.

[00:25:39] Tracy LaLonde: And sent you to give me grace and or maybe it help you realize that I get the full picture cuz I put myself in your shoes 

[00:25:46] Steve Fretzin: and do I need to explain the personal situation and try to get like sympathy for that or do I. Leave it out and just say personal things I don’t wanna. Have to get into the details of it.

[00:25:57] Steve Fretzin: It’s not that’s not your concern. It’s it’s on me and just like own it like that 

[00:26:02] Tracy LaLonde: I don’t think you have to give a lot of details at all. Okay, I think you need to give them something 

[00:26:07] Steve Fretzin: Okay 

[00:26:08] Tracy LaLonde: I think you need to characterize it in some way whether it was I’ve had a really difficult personal situation or I’ve had a medical situation like well, and that’s all kind of all you need to say But I think you need to characterize it a little bit so that it gives them confidence that this is a one off thing You 

[00:26:27] Steve Fretzin: Yeah 

[00:26:27] Tracy LaLonde: And not going to be a recurring repetitive kind of thing or maybe it is maybe you do have a health issue that’s going to be sustainable.

[00:26:35] Tracy LaLonde: You don’t have to tell them what it is, but it’s like, yeah, I’ve got some health stuff where it’s going to have me in and out a little bit. So I’d like to talk with you about how we can still be responsive and share with you. The people that I’ve put in place to back me up for those times when I may be, you know, out of pocket, given what’s going on.

[00:26:55] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. And I think, you know, trust is a two way street and I’m very trusting. If you burn me, I’ll give you a second chance. And if you burn me again, right. I think then this is demonstrating a pattern of a lack of trustworthiness, lack of integrity. And I don’t really wanna have relationships with people that I can’t trust and that I think are breaking the trust continually.

[00:27:18] Steve Fretzin: So I think we gotta like, think about, and you talk, this may be the greatest lead ever back to joy, but like, when you find people that you love and trust and can enjoy and spend time with them and then get rid of the people who break the trust and that aren’t Your favorite people more joy agreed full circle.

[00:27:38] Steve Fretzin: Wow. Okay. I must be pretty good at this thing Coming around the full circle there. Holy mackerel. All right, so cool Let’s go and talk about your game changing book and I’m absolutely fascinated by sleep and I’m 54 years old I’ve never had a problem with sleep. I’ve always gotten my seventh solid only in the last couple months Have I been waking up at like three and four o’clock and like what why I don’t know and so tell us about this book Why we sleep.

[00:28:10] Tracy LaLonde: Yeah, why we sleep by Matthew Walker. It’s just When I read that book, I just my brain was exploding like wow, that’s why that wow, that’s a lot Oh interesting, you know, and so He just makes sleep understandable. He explains how it works. So is the science behind it? He also gives a lot of social science around the criticality of it because many people almost wear a badge of honor.

[00:28:37] Tracy LaLonde: When they get little sleep, like, oh, I can survive off 4 hours. Well, you could be, but the science is you’re going to die earlier than me, you know, who gets 7 and give suggestions, you know, for how to improve sleep over time and the National Institutes of health has some great suggestions to around that kind of thing.

[00:28:55] Tracy LaLonde: But it’s just 1 of those sleep is so critical. And again, another thing that’s taken for granted. Because it happens every day, but it’s just like staying fit and any other discipline you want to have in your life, it is one of those things that if you do it with discipline, will physically give you a better life.

[00:29:12] Tracy LaLonde: I 

[00:29:13] Steve Fretzin: mean, I think this is not a topic we’re going to get into, but it, you know, it just goes to, goes back to how critical it is to have discipline. Discipline to eat, discipline to sleep, discipline to work. To break away and have special time with you know away from work or whatever it might be and i don’t think you know and i’m seeing my teenager grow up and this discipline is minimal and you know of course you won’t listen to me so my father had my father larry the lawyer he had great discipline it was called his belt.

[00:29:44] Steve Fretzin: Different type of discipline. 

[00:29:45] Narrator: Yeah. 

[00:29:46] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. When his hand went to his belt, boy, I sure got a moment or whatever I had to do. But anyway, so wonderful having you as we wrap up, want to thank our sponsors. One of them is me. I’m the sponsor. And it’s talking about the Rainmakers round tables. These are million dollar plus attorneys that are managing firms that feel like they’re on an Island.

[00:30:05] Steve Fretzin: They want to be in an environment, in a room with other sophisticated, smart lawyers to talk shop, scaling, business development, marketing, time management, growth. And, and have me as their coach along the way. If anyone’s interested in auditing one of my Rainmaker round tables, just email me at steve at Fretzin

[00:30:21] Steve Fretzin: com. I’ll get you in November, December, whenever it was comes out to get you a free audit. And then of course, rankings. io phenomenal marketing agency focused on websites and SEO and pay per click and all that great stuff. Tracy so amazing. If people want to get in touch with you, they want to really get to check out who the joy achiever really is and what you’re all about, what are the best digits for them to find you.

[00:30:44] Tracy LaLonde: Yeah, the best place is to go to my website joyachiever. com or my email address is tracy, t r a c y at joyachiever. com. And so I’ve got the new trust book called Trust Me, an insider’s guide to being the go to person at work that I, that a lot of what we talked about is encapsulated there. 

[00:31:02] Steve Fretzin: Awesome. Well, thank you for being an amazing guest on my show.

[00:31:05] Steve Fretzin: I mean, I feel like this conversation was incredible and that people listening that maybe aren’t make paying enough attention to their relationships and the trust factor, you know, are going to really take to heart what we shared today. So thanks so much again. Thanks, Steve. I appreciate it. Yeah. And thank you everybody for spending time with Tracy and I today on the, Be That Lawyer with Fredson podcast.

[00:31:23] Steve Fretzin: Again, helping you to be that lawyer, confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker. Take care, everybody. Be safe, be well, and we’ll talk again real soon.

[00:31:34] Narrator: Thanks for listening to Be That Lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website, Fretzin. com, for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes.

[00:31:56] Narrator: We’ll see 

[00:31:57] you next time.