Jim Ries: The Giver’s Guide to Business Development & Networking Mastery

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Jim Ries discuss:

• Why business development is a critical yet often overlooked skill for lawyers
• The role of networking in long-term professional success
• How adopting a giver’s mentality leads to stronger professional relationships
• Best practices and common mistakes in networking and relationship-building

Key Takeaways:

• Taking a few minutes to research a common connection before meetings and using the “FORD Method” (Family, Occupation, Recreation, Dreams) leads to more engaging and productive networking conversations.
• Effective networking is about quality over quantity, so instead of collecting business cards, aim for three meaningful conversations that lead to valuable follow-ups.
• Trust is built through consistent action, so always follow through on promises like introductions or shared resources to strengthen credibility and relationships.
• Business development requires patience and persistence, as long-term success comes from continuously nurturing relationships and staying top-of-mind for future opportunities.

“The phrase I like to use is not “give to get”—that sounds like expecting something in return. The phrase I use is “give to give”—give because you want to… because it feels good… and just keep giving. That’s when people know you, like you, and trust you.” —  Jim Ries
Got a challenge growing your law practice? Email me at steve@fretzin.com with your toughest question, and I’ll answer it live on the show—anonymously, just using your first name!

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Rainmakers Roundtable: https://www.fretzin.com/lawyer-coaching-and-training/peer-advisory-groups/

Episode References: 

The Go-Giver by Bob Burg and John David Mann: https://www.amazon.com/Go-Giver-Expanded-Little-Powerful-Business/dp/1591848288

The Little Red Book of Selling by Jeffrey Gitomer: https://www.amazon.com/Little-Red-Book-Selling-Principles/dp/1885167601

The Sales Bible by Jeffrey Gitomer: https://www.amazon.com/Sales-Bible-Ultimate-Resource-Jeffrey/dp/B00DEK8F8M

About Jim Ries: Jim Ries, Director of Business Development at Offit Kurman, connects business owners with the right attorneys across 30+ practice areas. Known as the “Legal BD Guy,” he ensures clients aren’t underserved, overcharged, or ignored. As a trusted legal concierge, he helps business owners frustrated with their current representation. A passionate networker, Jim loves one-on-one Zoom meetings to build connections and provide legal solutions.

Connect with Jim Ries: 

Website: http://www.offitkurman.com/

Email: jries@offitkurman.com

Phone: 410-733-6133

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jimrieslegalbdguy/ & https://www.linkedin.com/company/offit-kurman/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jim.ries

Connect with Steve Fretzin:

LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

Instagram: @fretzinsteve

Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.

Website: Fretzin.com

Email: Steve@Fretzin.com

Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!

YouTube: Steve Fretzin

Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Steve Fretzin: [00:00:00] Hey, just wanna take a moment to answer a question from someone from the be that lawyer audience. This is Jerry from San Diego, California. He asks, I don’t have time to do business development. How do I fix this? That’s never happened or I’ve, I never heard that before. Jerry, I appreciate you asking the question.

I. Obviously very difficult to do business development without time, right? That’s really the most important thing is if you’re building 2000 hours, you’re doing administrative tasks, marketing tasks, all these different things, you’re never gonna get business development done. It’s always gonna be pushed down to the bottom.

So I’m gonna give you two suggestions that are both really helpful and if help my clients significantly to get to business development and create the time that you need to do it. Number one is read the book, getting Things Done. I’ve been harping about this for years. It really made me into an efficient beast of a person with a zero inbox and no paper and just incredibly organized.

So read the book, getting things Done. It’s gonna give you systems and processes to follow that will help you to be more successful. To create and open up that time. It’s like you have a system for everything you do from [00:01:00] brushing your teeth to showering to how you run a trial, yet you don’t have a process for how you manage your time.

So that’s the first suggestion. The second one is gonna be to actually track your day. I. Think about starting at [6:00] AM and ending at [7:00] PM and literally track what you do all day from when you go to the bathroom to when you’re doom scrolling on LinkedIn to the work that you’re actually producing, and see if you can identify things that are time wasters, time suckers, that you can eliminate or delegate or figure out, Hey, I shouldn’t be doing this $20 an hour task when I’m charging 500 an hour.

So couple thoughts Jerry, for you on how to get organized and really make time your best friend, not your enemy. And hopefully this is helpful everybody. And so check out to be that lawyer. We’re got coming up this great episode coming up next. So enjoy the show everybody, and we’ll we’ll see you soon.

Narrator: You are listening to be that lawyer, life-changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. [00:02:00] Each episode, your host, author, and lawyer coach Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.

Steve Fretzin: Hey everybody. Welcome back. It is Steve Fretzin and you are listening to the Be That Lawyer podcast with Fretzin. God man, five years and almost 500 episodes. And just continuing to help to focus on helping all of you crazy, wacky attorneys to learn the stuff you never learned in law school. And I continue to bring on amazing guests.

I think you know that by now. And is this your second time, Jim?

Jim Ries: I think so. Yeah.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Two, you double timer, two timer. But man, this is exciting because the amount of knowledge that you and I possess on networking and business development and the ability for us to rattle off, a dozen, solid takeaways for people listening today, it’s gonna be a lot of fun.

And again, if you’re in your car driving, don’t pull out your notepad. But if you’re sitting in your office, [00:03:00] maybe pull out a notepad. ’cause there’s gonna be some things you’re gonna wanna write down today. I can almost guarantee it. Anyway, welcome to the show, Jim. Let’s do you mind if we just start off with your quote of the show?

Jim Ries: My quote of the show. Yeah.

Steve Fretzin: Which I can tell you what it is and then you can tell me what you think. Tell me

Jim Ries: what it is,

Steve Fretzin: quote of show. I think Steve Fretzin Iss a cool guy. No, that’s not the quote. All right. Yeah. Show me. You know me by Samantha McKenna. Correct. So Correct. Show me. You know me. I love that.

Jim Ries: Yeah, Samantha McKenna is someone that I follow on LinkedIn on a regular basis. She’s awesome. She really teaches and trains people how to use LinkedIn as a wonderful tool. And show me your know me, you know me, is exactly what it sounds like before you connect with someone, before you have that first Zoom meeting or coffee meeting or whatever it might be.

Do a little research. You don’t have to spend hours, but do a little research. Find that common thread. So for me and Steve, funny enough, a common thread is paddle [00:04:00] tennis. What did I talk about when I jumped on this morning? Hey Steve, how’s your paddle team doing? Yeah, you

Steve Fretzin: went right into it. You didn’t waste a second.

Went

Jim Ries: right into it. Yeah, so it’s a great icebreaker. So remember that. Show me you know me from the one and only Samantha McKenna.

Steve Fretzin: And the idea that you’re gonna talk about the traffic, like we have a snowstorm potentially coming in Chicago. Who want, who cares? Nobody wants to hear about the traffic or the weather.

It’s not a report on tv. Okay. Take a couple minutes, look at their website, look at their LinkedIn, come up with something in common to talk about or something that impresses you. Bring it up as an opener and get things going off on the right foot. I think that’s what you’re saying.

Jim Ries: Exactly. Even look, Steve’s from Chicago.

Oh man. I had one of the best steak dinners at whatever restaurant in Chicago. Yeah.

Steve Fretzin: Okay. Okay.

Jim Ries: Yeah. There you go.

Steve Fretzin: There you go. Hey everybody. You’re listening to Jim Reese. He’s a good friend of mine who’s been working at a law firm working in a, as a business development expert director BD at Offit Kerman.

Give everybody a little background because it’s [00:05:00] not probably what you thought you’d be doing when you were coming outta high school or something.

Jim Ries: Yeah, for sure. Let’s take it to when I came outta college about it took about three days off and started working in my family’s business. We were importers and distributors of Ladies footwear.

I worked there for 31 years, and in August of 2009, we closed. That’s the last day I closed that door behind me, thanks to the the deep recession we were in. And so we walked away with nothing. After 99 years in business we did create one heck of a legacy, but it’s not like we sold the business or anything.

We walked away from nothing. And I pretty much, I just, came up with what’s next for me. Had a couple of jobs and then found Offit. Kerman in February of 2013. So it’s Almo, I think next week is my 12th year anniversary at Offit. Kerman. Nice. I was hired as a professional manager of the law firm and four years later [00:06:00] they saw that I was really wired for business development.

I. And they asked me to take that on as my new role and have never looked back. It’s a great role for a great law firm. I love it. Yeah,

Steve Fretzin: and just for people that are listening, they may not realize that there are non-lawyers that work in law firms in a business development role. I don’t know that it taken off the way that I thought it might 10 years ago.

I think you’re, maybe more of a unicorn than part of a herd.

Jim Ries: Good point, Steve. My wife tells me, why don’t you tell people right off the bat that you’re not a lawyer? ’cause they’re gonna think you’re a lawyer, ’cause you work for a law firm. In fact, I am not a lawyer, but I am director of business Development at Offit Kerman, and it’s a wonderful role.

I don’t run into too many people who have my role at a law firm. I do an OFU who share my role at a CPA firm. Many people with a business development title at a law firm may be working internally with the attorneys to [00:07:00] train them how to do business development, but very few of them are externally faced, like I am a hundred percent client facing day to day.

And so that’s what differentiates my role from many others.

Steve Fretzin: And I could be wrong, but I feel like a lot of BD people at law firms are helping with RFPs and helping with research and helping with the, to support the lawyers versus in a training role. ’cause I’m still observing a lot of mid-market and big firms that, that really don’t have training.

Maybe they refer other coaches, but that they don’t have that internal mechanism. And if they do, it’s, how good it is the question.

Jim Ries: Agree.

Steve Fretzin: So let’s transition to, lawyers and business development and it’s, obviously, I’m in business for a reason. There’s a gap a skills gap that’s pretty significant.

And you’re networking constantly and all the time with lawyers. What’s your identification of why business development, networking and the different skills, why there’s such a deep gap there?

Jim Ries: So look, lawyers go, they work hard. They [00:08:00] go to law school get, they get the law degree. They’re not typically.

Taught how to do business development. They’re not taught how to manage a law firm. Those are two areas where we have non-attorneys working at our firm in both business development and in management. And attorneys have billable hour requirements, so there’s a lot of pressure on them. Most of them are not comfortable in networking situations and with the billable hour requirements.

They’re more apt to be behind their desk getting work done than being out in a networking event.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah. I’ve also heard rumors. I can’t prove any of this, really likes the idea that they don’t learn the business side, because what it does is it traps them into, learning law and associate role and a worker bee, and they need that, right?

They need that to crank out all the work that they have, and again, can’t prove that. But that’s things I’ve heard in a buzzing from some of the big firm and some of the folks that have been on the show in the past. But ultimately, I think it’s up to the individual lawyer. [00:09:00] In law school and coming out of law school to identify that maintaining their network, growing their network and business development are things that are going to play a role in their future.

Jim Ries: Yeah. By the way, I think it’s more than just a guess. I think I’ve seen it firsthand that associates, law school graduates end up at big firms doing a lot of production work. Those big firms don’t want them out networking. They just want ’em cranking out production work. By the time they get to us after they’re burnt out at a big firm, they, most of them actually want to do networking and business development.

They want to grow their own book of business. We encourage them to grow their own book of business. So it’s different at our firm.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Also I think it’s, 5, 10, 15 years that they’ve missed the boat, if you will, on getting and also, here’s a big problem too, and I just talked about this, I think on my last show with David Ackert was.

There’s now five or 10 years in gaps of the relationships that they didn’t keep up with [00:10:00] the law school relationships, the undergrad, and even the lawyers that maybe they should have been networking with at their big firm. Because when you move away from that and you don’t have those relationships, you’re really starting from nothing.

When you could have been starting from, 50, a hundred, 200 people that you could reach out to start getting business development kind of rolling.

Jim Ries: Yeah, it, Steve, it’s no different than whatever business you’re in. You’ve heard people say never stop marketing whether business is bad and you feel like you need to cut budgets, don’t cut marketing.

Yeah. When business is good and you think you don’t have to, you don’t have the time and you don’t need the market, you still need to market. You gotta keep that funnel filled at all times. There’s never a good time not to market.

Steve Fretzin: I think I’ve heard you equate this to by planting a vegetable garden.

Can you elaborate on that?

Jim Ries: Yeah, sure. So I do believe that, business development is like growing a vegetable garden. That’s what I like to say. I have a little presentation that I give called Your net is your [00:11:00] net worth. And so if you think about growing a vegetable garden, you plant the vegetable seeds, and that’s the initial phase in growing your network.

For, people to get out there and meet people, and get to know, get people to know you and like you. So plant those seeds. Start building some relationships, get people to know you and like you. The next stage would be to cultivate the vegetable garden and in a BD role that is for you to continue to grow your relationships to the point where people now trust you.

So again, you plant the seeds, people get to know you and like you cultivate is where they begin to trust you. And then finally harvest. And that’s the last phase of the vegetable garden scenario or the BD scenario. That last phase in the BD scenario is forget to be there top of mind for when people need you.

Again, it’s know you, like [00:12:00] you, trust you and need you. That last one you have very little control over when a business owner needs you, but you do have control over being top of mind when they do need you.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah. And before we move forward, let’s take a step back and really break down those points even further.

So you mentioned people need to know you and like you, and that isn’t. I think there’s a misnomer that just by meeting somebody, you and I are meeting and we’re talking and we’re learning. We both like tennis and paddle tennis, and we have things in common. I think that’s a good start. But what I think people are missing the boat is that they’re not recognizing the importance of trying to give first or trying to help someone or solve a problem as a part of that meeting, that initial time.

So I’m asking you in our initial meeting, in addition to finding common ground and all that. What are you looking to accomplish in 2025? What are the barriers? Who are the best connections and connectors for you? And you mentioned that [00:13:00] CPAs are phenomenal for you, and I know a CPA that I think would be great for, and I’m gonna make that inroad.

And that’s the difference between being a professional meter and being someone who’s actually moving the needle to a relationship that could be reciprocal.

Jim Ries: A hundred percent. And by the way, my, the phrase I like to use is not give to get. Because that sounds like you’re expecting something in return.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah.

Jim Ries: My, the phrase I like to use is give to give, because you want to give. Give because it makes you feel good and just keep on giving. That’s when you get to a point where people know you like you and trust you. That’s when you become that lawyer. People want business owners. They all have problems that they need to have solved.

Forget the features and benefits of what you do. Just help them solve the problem and be yourself, be authentic. Help them solve a problem. Make an introduction. Whether it’s a professional based introduction where it’s [00:14:00] a CPA, an attorney, a banker, what have you, or it could be something personal.

You’re getting hit with snow there. We just got it today and it’s oh man, I need somebody to plow us out. Do you know anybody that’s, got a snowplow that can stop by and plow out the driveway? That’s a great connection.

Steve Fretzin: And by the way, the misnomer about networking and giving is that I have to give you a client that I need to have a matter to hand over to you for me to be a giver.

And that couldn’t be further from the truth. You mentioned a personal connection. It could be a connector like a CPA, someone that’s a, an advisor connection. I’m gonna introduce you and bring you into a networking group that I run, and I’m gonna introduce you to five or 10 other lawyers. There’s so many different ways to play ball and, but it’s just a matter of a, knowing what those options are and becoming more of a student of the game, of giving and really listening.

I think that’s also a problem is people don’t listen. You’re telling me all about what you do and how you do it. I’m not really listening. I’m thinking about what [00:15:00] I’m gonna say, and then when it comes to me trying to help you, I can’t because I haven’t been listening the whole time as opposed to listening and really thinking strategically about what you need and what can I do to help you.

Jim Ries: That’s a great lead into one of my favorite expressions. So those of you who you’ve instructed to make, to take notes ’cause they’re not driving. This is one of my takeaways and that is be interested, not interested. If you’re interested, you’re curious, you’re asking a lot of questions. If you’re interesting, you’re doing all the talking.

Keep that in mind. Be interested, not interesting.

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And so again. We think it’s about what we say in our infomercial and what we’re putting out there, when in reality a lot of relationships and networking is gonna be about really listening to what they’re saying, who they wanna meet, asking good questions, and trying to find a little bit of love in how you can help them or assist them in their world.

And that’s a great lead into the next piece that you mentioned, which is trust. [00:17:00] A

Jim Ries: hundred percent. Yep. And how do you accomplish trust? Because frankly, you and I probably have friends and most people listening, we have friends, close friends that we know and we love them, but we may not want to do business with them because the, for some reason, the trust just isn’t there.

Doesn’t mean that we don’t want to have a beer with him and dinner and stuff, but. We just don’t have the trust there. So I think you can accomplish trust in a couple of different ways. But one way that I know has been successful for me is that when I tell someone I’m gonna do something and I do it, you get trust immediately.

Yeah. So if someone says, Hey, can you make these introductions? And I make those introductions, it’s like that checks the box, the trust box. And now I know that they trust me. In my old business, when I used to travel around with some of the sales reps, I had a little pocket note notebook in my pocket, and I would make notes and the salesmen would always [00:18:00] tell the client, the customer, if Jim’s writing it down, it’s gonna get done.

And I think that’s still true today.

Steve Fretzin: Let me chime in though. The other side of it is the person you’re networking with and meeting with trustworthy, it’s not a one way street. So if you give, if they have offered to make a connection for you. They didn’t make it. You email them to check in. They don’t respond to your email.

You call them or email them again, they don’t respond. Okay, so what are we learning? We’re learning that this is a great person to have a beer with, to your point, but not necessarily someone I would trust to give a client to. If they’re not responding to me, then I’m just gonna assume they’re not gonna respond to other people, and why would I make another, or any connection for someone who isn’t able to commit to something and then follow through on that commitment.

That’s where trust breaking happens.

Jim Ries: Yep. Totally agree and I’ll give you one other example. It may not be exactly trust, but here’s another example of someone that I’ll meet with once and that’s it. But if I meet someone for coffee or have a lunch or a Zoom call, I. [00:19:00] And they’re, they don’t ask anything about me and what I do at Offit Kerman or what I do personally, what I like to do.

That’s a real miss. So I think long and hard about doing a follow-up meeting with someone like that who just talks about themselves. Now, I ask a lot of questions. I wanna learn about their business, but. We got 30 or 60 minutes. There’s some time in there where you can say, Hey, listen, I’ve been talking about myself.

Tell me about you. What do you like to do? Tell me about what do you like about your job? What do you like about the firm? I’ve had that happen too many times, and I. That is not a good look.

Steve Fretzin: That might fall under the category of what are the do’s and don’ts of networking? That’s a don’t, what I try to teach and assist people with is setting up game plans for networking meetings and Troy’s like a three-way networking meeting where we establish, Hey Jim, we have a limited amount of time.

I want this to be valuable for both of us. If you could take 15 minutes and share more about your business, how you help your clients, who you’re looking to meet. And then I’ll take 15 minutes and that way [00:20:00] we get equal talk time. And then near the end of the meeting, let’s try to come up creatively with what, some way to help each other maybe take a baby step forward, to try to figure out a mu, a small but mutual connection.

Is that something you’d be open to? And of course you would say yes because everybody’s winning in that scenario. And I think sometimes there’s less experienced networkers that don’t realize they’re talking the whole time, or don’t realize like what good networking acumen is. So I think that’s a, maybe a safe play, a safe way or play to establish some ground rules.

So you don’t get sold to, you don’t have someone talking the whole time and really dominating the conversation. It allows for a mutually beneficial opportunity.

Jim Ries: Exactly. Mutually beneficial. And Steve, you brought up some dos and don’ts about networking. Do you mind if I share a few of my favorites?

Steve Fretzin: I would love that, yeah.

Jim Ries: Okay. Awesome. So we’ll start with the dos, the good stuff. Be yourself because everyone else has taken. So in other words,

Steve Fretzin: you have a lot of quotes, man. I know. We started with, that’s a good one. Started with show me, you know me. But hold, you’ve had, at [00:21:00] least, you’ve dropped at least three or four solid quote bombs that are phenomenal so far.

I’m not finished. I’m not

Jim Ries: finished though. Be yourself. I already said be interested. Not interesting.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah.

Jim Ries: And then something I learned and I read about, which is called the Ford Method, like the car, FORD. The F and this the Ford method is, here’s a hint on how do you get a conversation going? What kind of questions you ask.

So I tell people, use the Ford method. Ask people about family. That’s the f occupation. Ask ’em about their occupation. That’s the OR is for recreation. Ask him about recreation. What do you like to do when you’re not working? Do you like to bike? Do you play tennis? You play golf? Do you snowboard? Then D is for dreams, which is a little quirky, I would say goals.

I would feel funny, but to ask someone, so what are your dreams? ’cause who knows what they might tell you. But I would ask, so what are your goals? What do the next six months [00:22:00] look like for your business for your, whatever you’re doing, what’s the next year look like? What are you excited about?

FORD, family, occupation, recreation and Dreams. Here’s some don’ts about networking. Don’t be one of those people. We see, there’s three classes of people that we see at networking events that we don’t want to turn into. One is the snacker. They go to all the events and they eat and drink, and they never, they don’t really network.

The ghoster is someone who goes to all the events, they collect business cards and there’s no follow up. Then there’s the dealer. I bet you can figure out what the dealer does, and I’ve seen this. The dealer has a stack of business cards and they walk up to you while you and I are talking, and they’re dealing them out like they’re in Las Vegas.

You can never start a conversation with the business card. You really should wait for someone to say, Hey, do you mind if I grab one of your business cards? I’d love to follow up with you. So those are some donts. Two [00:23:00] more don’ts is don’t start selling your service and don’t treat networking like it’s speed dating because it’s not.

I go into a networking event. My expectations and my goal is I wanna walk away with three business cards, not 30, just three business cards. That means I’ve had three legit conversations with people that I want to follow up with. So those are some do’s and don’ts.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah, I love it. I would agree and also add, part of what I’m doing when I am at a networking event, I’m talking with someone, and again, I’m listening with my whole self.

I’m not looking at other people. I’m focused on the person in front of me. I’m gonna give them 10 or 15 minutes, and I’m gonna start realizing, is this someone that is qualified for me to spend more time with, to follow up with or disqualified? And I’ll give a quick example. I’m dealing with someone who never in a million years is going to know or run into an [00:24:00] attorney or have any access to attorneys.

That’s gonna be a simple great, we can be friends, but what’s the purpose of following? I can help you, but you’re never gonna know anyone that can help me. So I think, we have to think about who are the prospective clients that I wanna meet lawyers in this case that are hungry to grow and that are motivated and all that.

And then who are the strategic partners who can refer lawyer? I’m not saying I can’t be friends with everybody, and I’m not saying I can’t network and make a connection and get a connection from someone that I like and enjoy. I’m just saying that I’m more likely with time constraints to follow up with people who I see are directly related in my space or are directly in need of my services.

And those are gonna be the higher profile, two or three cards that I’m gonna follow up on, not the 10 people that I met. Those are people I’ll probably connect on LinkedIn with and just say, stay friends with.

Jim Ries: I do it every day. You’re a hundred percent correct. That’s how you gotta do it. Yeah. It’s about quality, not quantity for sure.

And

Steve Fretzin: qualifying. Again, if you have no [00:25:00] network at all and you have the time you can meet with everybody, there’s, you can build a network that’s nice and wide and has a great stability and make a lot of friends. And I think you and I both did that when we started out. Then over time, as you get busier and you start realizing, Hey, my time is super valuable.

I can’t, I just can’t do it. I can’t go to every networking event, nor do I want to, and I can’t meet with everybody. I have to think about and focus on the highest profile opportunities. And I think that’s where lawyers also get confused and concerned is that they have a limited amount of time and they’re thinking about all these people, these 10 people they have to follow up with after a networking event.

You don’t have to do that. Like your point, stick with the two or three that are high profile and everybody else you can just stick into your LinkedIn.

Jim Ries: Steve, you’re great at the segue activity because this leads me to another one of my favorite sound bites, and that is the riches are in the niches. The riches are in the niches.

I tell our attorneys, [00:26:00] yeah, you’re, you can’t be a generalist. You’ve got to be a specialist in something. So use the same theory when you go into a networking event that you were just talking about, and walking away with three really good qualified relationships because the riches are in the niches.

You can’t be everything to everyone. So rather than go shallow and wide, maybe go narrow and deep. And again, the riches are in the niches.

Steve Fretzin: Here’s an add on to that too is have two or three versions of your infomercial, because let’s say that you do, transactional work and there’s three areas you focus on.

There’s contracts, there’s m and a, and there’s real estate. Okay? You’re talking with someone and you ask questions first, right? You ask. You’re the one that says, Hey, what brought you here today and what’s your big plan for 2025 and getting to know them. What do what’s your day job?

And you’re listening and they say, oh yeah, I’ve been in real estate for so many years and this, that, and the other. Then you don’t do the m and a [00:27:00] and you don’t do the contract. Infomercial, you do the real estate law infomercial and how you help people and what kind of pain points they have or whatever differentiates you in the market, that’s gonna be super helpful to focus on the niche that’s in front of you, or the person that’s in front of you that might get triggered in a good way about something you say versus saying, I do everything.

Or even saying, you do three to five things, which is gonna be lost in very quickly in someone’s mind. They just can’t, we’re all like, fleas at this point with our brains. We’re not gonna remember more than two things.

Jim Ries: Yeah. Look you only have maybe, I don’t know, seven seconds to catch their attention and keep their attention so that they’re gonna want to hear more.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah. So lemme let’s wrap up with what you would consider to be the most important thing about business development. We talked about networking, we talked about relationships, we talk about a lot of things. When we think about business development as an over, like an umbrella to all the things underneath it, what’s the one thing that you just say, look, you gotta do [00:28:00] this.

Jim Ries: I think you gotta have a giver’s mentality. Okay. With no expectations to receive anything in return. You gotta have a giver’s mentality.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah. I’m gonna, I’m a big add-on guy, apparently. I’m gonna say yes. And it’s also okay to qualify people in or out. Meaning if you’re giving. 1, 2, 3, 4 clients contacts.

You’re doing all the right giving, but you’re not seeing the reciprocation. You’re not coaching them. Let’s say you’re even trying to coach them to reciprocate. They wanna help you and they’re just not invested in that. I think it’s also okay to disqualify someone and say, look, I am a giver. I love giving, but I also, there’s other people I could be giving to that do just as good a work and, understand and get reciprocation.

And so I think that’s, there’s a giver mentality, but I would say also with intelligence.

Jim Ries: Yep. I agree with that. That’s should be part of your strategy. I would add two other things in second or and third, and that would [00:29:00] be that business development and selling. Legal services is a marathon, not a sprint, number one.

And number two, you have to be patient and persistent at the same time. And many of us can’t do that. But patient and persistent at the same time.

Steve Fretzin: And just as you’re saying, that marathon, not a sprint, I love it. But if it’s a marathon, business development content, books, videos, podcasts, coaching, whatever it might be.

It is a marathon, but think about this. Can you cut a few hours off of the marathon time or can you cut, half an hour off your time? So it’s not a sprint, but even in a marathon, there are ways to make improvements to how you do business development, which is what Jim and I are really focused on in this 30 minute segment today, is to help cut back on the amount of time it’s gonna take you to develop a new relationship, to qualify, to understand how to, help somebody to be a giver.

Man, [00:30:00] I love it.

Jim Ries: I call that reducing the sales cycle.

Steve Fretzin: Okay. Yep. That’s all it is. Sales cycle, but also. The relationship and strategic partner cycle that might also occur. So we had talked about your game changing book and the Go-Giver, Bob Berg. It’s been mentioned. People get it. People know it. The one that is less known today for some reason, I’m not sure why it’s excellent, is Jeffrey Gemr.

This is, the Go-Giver and get EMRs. Little Red Book of selling. These were books, when I started my business, I was reading and enjoying. The one you’re talking about is Jeffrey ER’s sales Bible. Talk a little bit about that for the folks that are not familiar with Jeffrey Gitr and his little books that he writes.

Jim Ries: Yeah. And he calls ’em The Little Book of Sales and the Sales Bible, and they’re literally physically little books, and Jeffrey EMR was the first, I’ll call it, sales guru, trainer coach that I ever met. He used to come into town once a year and do a per a an in-person presentation and he just [00:31:00] showed up on stage and just talked, told it like it was, and talked about building relationships and making connections and what Very straightforward.

The sales bible. And remember, one of the things he said that I’ll never forget is you want loyal customers, not satisfied customers. Because as he, he related it to, would you want your partner in life to be loyal or satisfied? Our, the goal, his goal was loyal customers and how to make customers loyal and how to get them to be loyal and, all in the way that you’re offering your services or products.

So the sales bible was great. It still is, it’s a, it’s a standard in today’s world. Again, it’s physically a very small book, easy to read as are all of his, the little red book of selling, the black book of selling, et cetera. But he is a one of a kind guy. Just tells it like it is

Steve Fretzin: inauthentic. He was not the guy showing up with the three [00:32:00] piece suit and tie, right?

He shows up in like jeans in a, flannel or something.

Jim Ries: Actually, you know what, he’s, he used to wear Steve, back in the day, he’d show up with a shirt that a gas station attendant would wear like a green shirt. Oh

Steve Fretzin: right. Oh my God, that’s so funny. With

Jim Ries: his name, with his pat with a patch that said Jeffrey on it.

Yeah. That’s so great. That’s how he would show up.

Steve Fretzin: I totally, I knew I was like. Onto it, but you actually nailed it. Yeah. That’s awesome.

Jim Ries: Yeah.

Steve Fretzin: Awesome. Let’s also take a moment before we wrap up and thank our wonderful sponsors. Of course, if you’re a personal injury attorney and you haven’t checked out Pim Con or you did, you gotta go.

It’s just a fantastic program and check that out online. I think it’s in October, and of course the la her podcast, I think I second to mine. It’s great. And Sonya does a wonderful job interviews. I’m continually trying to get, figure out, great guests for her. Jim, you’re a networking master.

People wanna get in touch with you, they wanna network with you, they want to send, start looking at your firm. Offit, Kerman. What are the best ways for them to reach you?

Jim Ries: Two ways. One [00:33:00] is email. And my email is JRIE s@offitkerman.com. Phone is, I’ll list my phone ’cause it doesn’t matter to me.

Call me seven three three. Six. One. Three. Three. That’s my mobile. Four ten seven three three six. One. Three three. jayReese@offitkerman.com. Thanks, Steve.

Steve Fretzin: Hey, thank you. Look, like we said from the very start, this was gonna be a show unlike most shows where we really get into deep dive on networking and business development and giveaway, not only great quotes, which you did in spades, but also actionable take, actionable and tactical.

Things that lawyers could be doing today, tomorrow to improve the way that they’re spending their time in building their networks. Thank you so much for coming back and I really truly appreciate our friendship and I know that we’ve got a lot more that we can do to help this wonderful industry.

Jim Ries: You betcha. And Steve, you do so much for the [00:34:00] legal industry on the BD side, and I just would encourage everyone listening to follow you, get your book. Your podcasts are great. Your webinars are fabulous. I attend whenever I can. So much professional development to be had there. So I appreciate that what you’re giving to the legal profession is fabulous.

Wow.

Steve Fretzin: Then I’m not gonna say mission accomplished and put a big banner up on a battleship behind me, but I’m gonna say it’s a work in progress always. But thank you Jim and thank you everybody for spending time at the Be That Lawyer podcast again, helping you to be that lawyer, confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker.

Take care, everybody. Be safe. Be well, and we will talk again soon.

Narrator: Thanks for listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website Fretzin.com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and [00:35:00] marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes.