Alex Geisler: Creating Sticky Client Relationships in Law

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Alex Geisler discuss:

• Building long-term client loyalty in legal practice
• Structuring legal work around client expectations and needs
• Improving legal service delivery through lean process thinking
• Developing deeper relationships through proactive, strategic communication

Key Takeaways:

• Long-term client loyalty is built through the TREE approach: Transparency in communication, Reliability in service, Efficiency in delivery, and clear Expectations that align with the client’s goals.
• Lawyers can create stronger, “stickier” client relationships by going beyond transactional work and offering value through strategic thinking and curiosity.
• A structured approach to legal work—planning, executing, reviewing, and improving—can lead to better results, stronger client trust, and greater efficiency.
• Understanding the client’s definition of success early on, and tailoring the legal approach accordingly, is key to exceeding expectations and retaining business.

“There’s no substitute for knowing yourself and knowing your purpose. There’s no substitute for knowing your client. And just keep checking in on yourself and checking in on your client.” —  Alex Geisler

Got a challenge growing your law practice? Email me at steve@fretzin.com with your toughest question, and I’ll answer it live on the show—anonymously, just using your first name!

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Episode References:

Tao Te Ching by Lao Tzu: https://terebess.hu/english/tao/mitchell.html

About Alex Geisler: Alex’s career was spent in three environments: in-house, at Big Law, and with manufacturers. He then harnessed these experiences to create Lean Law, a consultancy devoted to helping lawyers turn new business into repeat business. In addition to personal coaching, his ideas can be accessed through the acclaimed Lean Adviser online curriculum, his Lean Briefing—which receives 40,000 hits each week—and his books and papers.

Connect with Alex Geisler:

Website: https://www.leanlaw.co/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alex-geisler-05b5761a/

Connect with Steve Fretzin:

LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

Instagram: @fretzinsteve

Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.

Website: Fretzin.com

Email: Steve@Fretzin.com

Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!

YouTube: Steve Fretzin

Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions.

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FULL TRANSCRIPT

Steve Fretzin: [00:00:00] Hey everybody. Before we get to the show, I wanna answer a question from Mike from Kansas City, Missouri, and he asks, I’m nervous about attending a big networking event. How do I approach with confidence? Thank you, Mike, for the question. I think a hundred percent the way to approach it is to be prepared.

That means you need to be prepared at looking at who’s gonna be there, maybe communicating with the host to have a conversation, see if the people that you wanna meet are gonna be there having a great infomercial prepared. Most importantly, be prepared with a few good questions that you can ask the attendees.

So when you walk in, you, you know how to approach people and you can ask them a question what brings you here? Or this is my first time. You know what, are you a member of this? Whatever it might be to get people talking and getting to learn about their businesses. As long as you can ask questions and listen, you’re gonna do great at networking.

You’re also gonna know who do you wanna follow up with and who not. It’s less about you saying things and talking. It’s really more about listening, understanding, finding, and qualifying who you wanna follow up with. Hope this was [00:01:00] helpful. I. Thanks, Mike for Kansas City. If you have other questions, people please email me steve@Fretzin.com.

I love answering these questions on the show and continuing to help you be that lawyer, confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker. Take care.

Narrator: You are listening to be that lawyer, life-changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author, and lawyer coach Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.

Steve Fretzin: Hey everybody, it’s Steve Fretzin. Welcome back to the Be That Lawyer podcast. We are here for you. To be that lawyer confident, organized in a skilled rainmaker, and also to not just exist with the law practice that you have, but to obtain the one that you dream about. That’s what this show is all about. So I have such a wonderful and [00:02:00] amazing guest for you today that I know you’re gonna enjoy.

Alex is hanging in the wings. How’s it going, Alex? Hey, I am great. How you doing, Steve? Oh man. I’ve got no worries and everything is just splendid. I’m above ground another day enjoying my work with attorneys and my beautiful family and my beautiful world that I live in. I posted something today about I.

Sacredness of life. And I, people know I’ve survived a plane crash and people that survive cancer and crashes and all kinds of tragedies, I think maybe have a different view of things about how sacred our time on this planet is. And I just, every day I’m waking up and just realizing how fortunate I am that I’m here.

I Do you have a take on that?

Alex Geisler: I sure do. And look, Steve, I’m there for that. I do a thing where I walk to the station every day, even though there’s a mini bus from where I live. I don’t get the mini bus. We live in a park and I walk through the park. It takes 31 minutes 34 if I get coffee, so let’s call it 34.

And the walk through the park. I take the long way and I see all the seasons. I [00:03:00] see trees, animals, I get dogs come up to me. I get my daily doggy dopamine hit. I do with that and I soak it all in bath in that I go, there’s no better way to start than day than walking through a park. And just inhale all of that stuff in the air.

I’m good. Let’s go.

Steve Fretzin: I love it. Yeah. We have to figure out a good morning routine and a way to get fresh in the morning and realize we’ve got a day in front of us and let’s make the best of it. Let’s start off with a wonderful quote of the show that you submitted. I’m really enjoying it as I read it, it’s luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity.

So a welcome to the show again, and also share about that quote from Seneca and why that’s your quote of the show.

Alex Geisler: Yeah, sure. So Seneca is one of the great stoics, and we don’t have time to get into that, but what he says is true of any attorney who looks down and sees an assignment on their plate in front of them.

Luck is what happens when preparation meets [00:04:00] opportunity. That assignment is your opportunity. You, this can be a one and done gig, or you can prepare right for the assignment. We can get into that a little bit. And this can be the beginning of a beautiful relationship. You know what, Steve, A more modern way of saying the same thing Steve Van Zandt still of the E Street band said it another way.

He said, this is the time of your life. What are you gonna do with it? Don’t fall with it. That’s a lyric. It’s exactly the same. It’s now, it’s right here. This is the opportunity right here. What do you do with it?

Steve Fretzin: Yeah. People say, boy, he sure is lucky, or She sure is lucky that she got that assignment, or that she, is a rainmaker and has such a big practice.

Trust me, when I tell you everybody, there’s no luck. It’s the preparation and the opportunity that you put in front of you and how you build and grow and develop relationships and trust and the way that you present yourself and all the different pieces that go into making that luck happen.

It’s not a lottery ticket situation life. I [00:05:00] could say I was lucky to survive that crash. Or I could say maybe that was luck. There was things that went into it that we could say it wasn’t so wonderful having you, man. For everybody listening, Alex here, Geisler is the founding principle at Lex Flow Growth Partners.

And you’re over in the, across the pound in the uk. I’m excited to have you give us a little bit of background on how you came to be.

Alex Geisler: Sure. Thank you for that. Thank you for the invite. I really appreciate it. I’ve been playing a bunch of your stuff ever since I got connected to you, and I’m really enjoying some of your pods, I’ll tell you that.

So I’m a 40 year trial lawyer hack, and I say that with all difference to myself and every other trial lawyer hack you’ve ever met. And I have had just the most fun. I’ve been in the manufacturing industry. All my clients have been manufacturers pretty much forever. And so I’ve seen in-house, I’ve been in-house, I’ve seen how manufacturers work.

I’ve done catastrophe work process reviews, all of that good stuff. And it got into me a little [00:06:00] bit the way manufacturers do stuff. There’s a process to it way more than in the law. There’s, okay, so before we do this, let’s do that. Should we plan how we’re gonna do this? And real early on, I got to walk down a car line.

I’ve now since been down many car lines and truck lines. There’s such a process to it. No. We are gonna put the leather seats in after we’ve put the oily, messy stuff in. What, say the leather seats going last and what Say the guy. Okay. What on earth does that have to do with the practice of law?

I started copying that stuff for my clients. I started thinking, what if before I read all the documents and then go talk to the client. Maybe I talk to the client and then go read all the documents. They’re both wrong. Let’s just stand back. What am I trying to do here? I’m trying to find out about this new assignment.

What if I say to the client, look, gimme a high level. [00:07:00] Can you gimme the 10 main documents? And one person who knows about this, I don’t have, if I, ’cause I read all this, 90% of it’s gonna be crap and you’re not gonna pay me for it. Yeah. And if I go speak to eight of your people, seven of them will know nothing about it.

You are not gonna pay me for that either. And they’ll get annoyed with me. So I started borrowing their stuff and modifying it for the practice of law. ’cause of course, manufacturing is one thing, and law is, and I think it’s a service industry. And Steve, the most amazing thing is they didn’t even notice.

I started doing what I call bo. Boring Lean, right? Lean processes. Plan, execute, monitor, improve lean reports forward. Ready reporting. Just in time reporting. They didn’t even notice. Short bills, short narrative, short everything. Get to the point, right? Here’s the news. We had a motion we lost. We are gonna appeal.

That’s it. And then the whole context, if you wanna read it, you’ll remember this was about the guy that drove off a cliff in India. Get to that later, they didn’t even [00:08:00] notice except for one thing. They kept rehiring me. I will tell you it’s not because I’m the most successful. I’ve lost cases. I tell me a trial lawyer who doesn’t lose cases and it’s not because I have a niche.

I don’t do anything other trial lawyers don’t do. You can throw a brick from this window in the 16th floor in London and it doesn’t trial lawyers, it’s not because I have any special pedigree and it’s not because I’m a great judge. I’m none of that stuff. It is, and we can get into this a little bit.

What gets you rehired? Which is my thing getting rehired is

Steve Fretzin: how you do this job. How you Yeah. Rehired and keeping clients and yeah. It’s not the one and done, it’s how you, because in the US they call it having institutional client. Yeah. Someone that has, not one matter every 10 years, but 10 matters a year every year.

Alex Geisler: Yeah. It’s exactly that. And there is data, and you might have seen it, Steve, around the average duration of a lifespan. A lawyer client [00:09:00] relationship, do you wanna guess? On average, how long does a lawyer keep a client?

Steve Fretzin: Depends on the lawyer. Depends on the client, but I’ll just stay out. I’ll just throw out a number and say three years, you’d be almost spot on.

Alex Geisler: The average is two to five years. Okay. Thus, think about that, which means the average lawyer’s gonna have to renew the entire client base every five years. Look at the effort that goes into that. Look at the lost opportunities.

Steve Fretzin: Oh, I know all about it. That’s my quicksand every day. The lawyers I’m working with is constantly, but we are talking about.

How you find a client, bring a client in, and then I spend quite a bit of time on developing client relationships, loyalty. How do you get sticky within the organization so that when the GC leaves you can a go with, but also stay where you were, right? So that three years that GC leaves, you’re still able to maintain the business you have.

But let me ask you this. I wanna take a step [00:10:00] back. What, so then is the worst kind of business lawyers can bring in the one and done, is that not the promised land for lawyers? If it’s

Alex Geisler: a one and done for me, that’s oftentimes, that’s on the lawyer. Look, if it’s the first job, what I call job one, you can be unlucky.

You can get some client comes to you with Mission Impossible, you do your best. And they go, yeah, we’re not using them again. To all of us. Yeah. But if we’re talking about good lawyers with good clients and decent assignment, if it’s one and done, that’s on you. And it doesn’t have to be this way. If you execute it right, the stuff you teach and the stuff I coach you can get job two and job three, and then you become a go-to.

That’s the next stage in the evolution, right? You wanna be the go-to, you start building in durability and stickiness. I love that word. And then you get to job four and five and you get beyond repeat business. The promised land, which is loyalty, not [00:11:00] the same as repeat business and Right. I know you know this because loyalty is, I’m not gonna

Steve Fretzin: shop around.

I’ve got my firm, I’ve got my person, right? I’m very trust, likability, effectiveness. It’s all there. But here’s the big question, Alex, is there’s something that is missed by lawyers around the world of getting that first job, doing a great job and not. Having a process to get to two and three and four.

Yeah. And that’s what I’d love for you to teach for a minute or two or five would be Sure. What are some things that you do and that you teach that help people have a great, have their clients have a great experience? Maybe it’s, that’s part of is how do they have that great experience beyond the matter, and then leading into what do they have to do and say and ask to get to two and three and four?

Alex Geisler: Great question. Okay, so let’s get into it. It’s about. Methods. It’s about mindset [00:12:00] and it’s about tool sets. Let me develop that a little bit. So look at every attorney’s different. Every law firm is different. So when I go in to coach, I start asking questions and I start with the attorney. Tell me about your three A’s that.

That’s the attributes, the attitudes, and the inspira and the aspirations. What I call KYP. Know your potential, know your proposition to the world. Why do you become a lawyer? Walk me through an ideal day. That may seem like an odd place to start as a coach, but I guess you do something similar. And then I go from there.

And we talk about the firm and the brand and the reputation. Talk about client attrition, and then we get to the attorney’s relationship with the client. The attorney’s relationship with the firm and we start talking about the client, what, how well do you know them? [00:13:00] And now we get to, now we get to the good stuff.

Are you specializing in, in my world, trial work or trial work in the auto sector or trial work? The General Motors or Jaguar Andro or Stellantis? ’cause you need to specialize in the client. That’s the minimum standard. Just as much as the GC specializes in the client, you need to do that too. Really need to know about their people, their products, their processes, their priorities.

And that’s where it starts, because why do we exist? What is our purpose? And folks say to me I did this because I have a student loan. And I no. Come on. Why do you become a lawyer? ’cause I think I’m creative and bright and I like solving client problems. There you go.

That’s right. Why do you think clients hire you? ’cause you’re bright and you’re creative and you solve problems. [00:14:00] What do you think? They have a ton of problems. Push the other stuff away that will sort itself out. Just figure out, okay, now you start having a relationship with a client that’s getting a bit sticky.

What problem am I here to solve? It really starts with the attorney starting to ask the client the right questions. What problem are we trying to solve here? How do we get into this? What’s your risk appetite? What does good look like to you? Can we get aligned on what a really awesome outcome would be for you?

Okay I’m not gonna be able to deliver that. Can we get aligned on

Steve Fretzin: what you can live with? Let me ask you, I’m gonna stop you for a second, please. These are questions that are not being asked really. No, they’re not being asked. There are lawyers who are going through the motions of the matter.

They’re going through the motions of the problem and the solution. But the questions that you just brought up, I, you and I are, brothers from a, from across the pond. But ultimately I think most lawyers are going in [00:15:00] and talking and solving, and they may be a great lawyer and maybe getting the job done, but I don’t think they’re asking a lot of the questions that gets them to know the client at a level.

Where they can a, build a stronger relationship and really know the client at that level where they can perform beyond the basics.

Alex Geisler: I said when you said that, I said, really, it’s because some folks do it. My word for this is lean lawyering. It’s just a label. There are lean lawyers who have never heard that word.

There are folks with 10 year relationships, 20 year relationships, and that’s exactly what they do. There are other folks who do what you do because they haven’t been coached by you or coached by me. There are teams who don’t do what we’re talking about, but they could. It’s just coaching. You had a great poll.

I was listening to it at the weekend. Somebody called Deb Poet. Yeah. She was on one of your shows and she said something and she’s absolutely right. She said, it’s just two [00:16:00] people.

Steve Fretzin: Just we’re, yeah, we’re two human people that put on our pants the same way and that, go to dinner and, yeah. Yeah. We’re not that different. No.

Alex Geisler: And she said, she didn’t say it quite like this but she basically said the three most powerful words are, tell me more. Think what she said.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah.

Alex Geisler: I’m like, wow, Deb, you are so right.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah.

Alex Geisler: Tell me more, because like you said, going to a client delivering a lecture is not gonna bus anybody’s par nips.

Steve Fretzin: There’s a not. I love that great stuff with proven SEO and digital marketing strategies that drive actual clients to your firm, rankings.io prides itself on proof, not promises mentality. The best firms hire rankings.io when they want rankings, traffic, and cases. Other law firm marketing agencies can’t deliver, get more rankings, get cases, and schedule a free consultation@rankings.io today.

So ultimately, what I think you’re sharing is an approach to not [00:17:00] just the matter, but an approach to the client problem, the client relationship, deepening your level of understanding, and that’s the starting point of this.

Alex Geisler: Yeah, and I call it. The result of it is client concrete. Its sticky, but the process is, I call ’cause I have names for stuff.

Clearly I’m weird. Okay. You’ll get to like me honestly. I, I like weird, so that all makes sense. You like weird? I’ll do. Sure. Okay. So the name I have for this is assignment alignment. Don’t just jump in. I know the managing partner said we need 2000 hours out of you. I know you are quiet.

I know you need the hours. I know you’ve got a student loan. I know. I’ve been down this road done 40 years of this. I get it. But do not just jump in. Don’t just go straight to execution. Just, stand back and look at it. What are we trying to do here? I had one of my first jobs when I was a kid. [00:18:00] I had a paper round.

Do you do that in the States where you Yeah not as much anymore, but yeah, there were paper routes for sure. Yeah, that’s what I used to do and my. On day one on my paper route, they said, here’s what you do. You go up the hill with these newspapers, you drop them, you go along, you go down. I said, I live around here.

I know these houses. That’s cool. I’ll do that. And I got three steps up the hill and I’m like, this is killing me. This could be a better way. And the guy said, no, this is the way we do it. I was only a kid, but if you say to me, this is the way we always do it, I’m going nah. You’re that kid.

You’re that

Steve Fretzin: kid.

Alex Geisler: I’m that kid. Oh, I’m not getting curious if this is the way we always do it. So nobody’s really stood back and thought about it. Okay, so I’m gonna do it exactly the opposite ’cause I’m that guy. So I would do the flat bit first, get rid of half the newspapers, go down that little cul-de-sac where the dog barks at me, make friends with him, and I do the hell last.

When there’s nothing left on the bicycle, I. As my mother, a [00:19:00] blessed memory, used to say to me, look, the load doesn’t get lighter. You can either get stronger or get smarter, but the load’s not getting any lighter.

Steve Fretzin: I love that. So that’s what I talk to lawyers about and I think that’s why, you and I are in this, game together because we’ve gotta help lawyers figure out efficiencies and smarter ways to.

Unload that bicycle and their billable hours and the administrative burden and the things that they’re doing that aren’t necessarily useful to them in living their best lawyer life. And that’s what this show is dedicated to. Totally. I so appreciate that. Alright, we’re in the beginning stages of asking questions and developing a deeper relationship with the client because we need to eventually get the second matter, the third matter.

How does it lead to that? Okay.

Alex Geisler: I wrote a book called Lean Law, which was everything I’d learned from clients, modified for law, and it was a mess, like all first drafts. And I thought, what is wrong with this? [00:20:00] Come on guy, but what is up with this thing hasn’t got a structure. You should know about structure.

So then I thought, all right, I’ll go read some strategic management plan, execute, monitor, improve, put half of it in planning. A lot of it finished in planning. That was interesting. Execution. Some stuff pitted there, monitoring and correcting stuff, pitted in there and improvement. All that’s interesting.

How are we gonna do that? So then I applied that to the practice of law. And you have a new assignment. You want it to be job 2, 3, 4, 5. You want it to be the start of a beautiful relationship. Let’s do some proper planning, understand what the client wants, deal with some expectations, and then put a pin in them.

Don’t just say yes or no. Okay, let me work on this a little bit. Let me plan the strategy. Let me look at the resources, create a resource map, create a timeline, put some costings in that let me understand who I’m gonna need from the client organization. [00:21:00] ’cause if that’s gonna be a problem, we should know that if I need your chief accountant or your chief engineer and I can’t get that person, then we’re done.

So let’s get aligned on all that stuff. And I build a structured plan. For the client and then go back to them at the end. Say, okay, this is what good looks like. This is your risk appetite. This is what it’s gonna cost you in time, in resources. Here’s a strategy, here’s some tactics. Here’s what we can do.

Are you in or not? And the client says, honestly, if it’s that, I’m out. Wow. I imagine if you don’t do that’s ending a lawsuit, an unpaid bill every time. Client says, okay, yeah, I’ve got it. We can’t do what I hope, but I can live with some other outcome, but you better deliver it. Okay, I can deliver that, or a version of it, and that’s planning, and then you go to execution,

Steve Fretzin: which is plan execute much.

But I, but real quick, before you get to execution, I think [00:22:00] one, one thing I’m picking up on what you’re saying is. By establishing agreeable expectations. Yeah, you’re setting the tone and the road in front of you versus not doing that with jumping into execution. And now that leads to potential disappointment and issue.

Alex Geisler: A hundred percent Steve. A hundred percent. So then, and we’ll do this real quick ’cause we’re in a time box. Execution is carry out the plan. It’s exactly the same as flying a plane from New York to London. You plan. Here’s how much fuel, here’s the burn rate. Here’s the route we’re gonna take.

Here’s how we’re gonna make the passengers comfortable. User experience is super important. What is comfort gonna look like to you as we go along? What supporting gonna look like? Execute according to the plan. And guess what? It’s event driven. It’s law where laws will mess each other’s lives up. Stuff will go wrong.

I’ve had it all. I’ve had witnesses die. I’ve had witnesses change. I’ve had. Every [00:23:00] unpleasant surprise you’re gonna get in 40 years. And I go to the client and I say, something’s gone wrong. And they all say, thank you for telling me. What are we gonna do? There is a workaround. Here’s some options.

But lawyers don’t always do that. They say, yeah, I’m not gonna tell the client. They’ll freak out. I’m gonna bury it or pretend it didn’t happen. Or I’ll try work around and it might work. No. Just have a bit of transparency and the acronym for all of this. I tell folks who will listen to me.

Transparency, reliability, efficiency, and expectations. It’s all of that. Go tell people the truth. I can get you from A to B. Stuff will go wrong. When it goes wrong, I’ll tell you and then we’ll fix it. And the last bit, and I’ll do it real quick, is improvement. Let the dust dry, let it will settle. Go to the client, do a quick q and a, syn out some questionnaires.

Soak the learnings and do a 30 minute zoom. [00:24:00] Hey, here’s what we learned. We all made some mistakes. Here’s some awesome stuff we can do. Again, here’s some stuff we’re gonna try not to do again. I’ve never met A GCU who says, I don’t wanna hear it.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah, that’s so powerful, the idea that you’re intentionally.

Setting expectations, executing, following through, giving, a summary of what just happened, what we’re gonna do better, what feedback can we get. These are, again, a lot of things that aren’t happening and lawyers wonder why they’re not getting job. 2, 3, 4, 5. And I love that you’re bringing this to the light because it’s, some people might feel that, no this is obvious.

It’s not, and it’s not being done, and it’s not being done well. So I think, this is so critical to, I. To the folks listening, whether you’re independent, solo, personal injury attorney, or you’re a big corporate attorney dealing with GCs. This doesn’t change.

Alex Geisler: That’s right. That’s exactly right, Steve.

And there’s no substitute for knowing yourself [00:25:00] and knowing your purpose. There’s no substitute for knowing your client and just keep checking in on yourself and checking in on your client and, your plate’s too full. Just own up and say, look, I promise to come to Chicago next week. I’ll come to Chicago.

I need three days off. I’m dead. What’s a client gonna say? It’s fine. Let’s put a pin in it. Let’s put it back a week. Yeah. Just talk to another human being. Tell ’em where you’re at.

Steve Fretzin: There’s no heart surgery scheduled. That’s right. It’s people, it’s in relationships in business, the biggest.

Challenge people have are surprises. We just don’t want, we don’t want ’em. We don’t like ’em. Yeah. Even birthday surprises piss people off, sometimes. So I think the ability for lawyers to be transparent and to establish expectations and how things are going to be handled when adversity enters into the picture.

That’s a big part of what I think we’ll wrap up on, which is that loyalty piece, right? Yeah. What are the one or two tips you can give that if you set all this up the way you’re suggesting, we can flo a little, sugar on [00:26:00] top for additional ways to drive loyalty. Okay. So let me

Alex Geisler: throw a few bullets at you.

Start with organizing yourself ’cause that’s good for your mental health. I have a thing called the breadboard. What on earth does that stand for? Oh, guess what? Annex has another acronym who saw that coming, right? The breadboard. Big rock every day. What’s the one big rock I’m gonna crush today? I’ll fit the little pebbles around it.

Yeah, do that first. That’s one. One. The breadboard number two. Look up and out. Look down and in. So look up and out at the clients, look outside at what the clients are specialize in the clients and their people and their processes. Then what else? Yeah, be a tree. We spoke about that. Be transparent, be reliable, be consistent, effective and efficient and always the same.

Show up with the same level of dedication, but every part of every project, every day. So it’s not like you’re a bit up, oh I got Alex today, wasn’t really at it. No. You hire [00:27:00] this attorney. You want the same standard every project,

Steve Fretzin: every day. It’s, Hey Alex, I wanna also add. A question that I ask every day and that I try to get my clients to ask every day.

And I don’t know that enough are doing it because I think loyalty is more than the matter. It’s more than the, the litigation. It’s, what else can I do for you? What else can I help you with? What other challenges are happening in your world? Is that your. Daughter is struggling to get into the right school and there’s, yeah, you need a resource for that.

Is it that your company needs help in not litigation, but in an acquisition that they’re struggling to get across the finish line? And do you know someone that you know can help me with that acquisition? Our firm does that, or I know someone that can help you with that. That’s the best in the business.

I think just being interested. Asking, what else can I help you with? Or what other problems do you have on your desk that I can try to alleviate for you? I don’t know too many people that would wanna leave a lawyer that did that. [00:28:00]

Alex Geisler: Yeah, you’re right, Steve. That’s absolutely right. And it’s, to me, it’s all a piece of, it’s all a part of a specializing in your client, what’s happening in their world, who are their competition, what’s happening right now in their world that you can help them with?

And it might be. They need an immigration lawyer. We don’t have neighbor in the firm who does immigration law. That’s not the point at all. I’ll find

Steve Fretzin: one for you. Yeah. I can find, yeah. I know people, right? I know people. I get emails every day. Lawyers who need lawyers. Lawyers who need software lawyers, who need coaching, whatever it might be.

I want those inbound calls. I ask for them and I want them because I’m able to then. Put the right people together with the right people and the right solutions. And that’s the, that’s the sort of reputation I want. That’s how I wanna be seen by my clients. And by the way, I think we need to do that as lawyers and as coaches, whatever it might be, because we’re setting the example [00:29:00] of how things should be done.

And if we’re not setting the example, then how are they gonna, they could hear us say it, but they’re not seeing us do it.

Alex Geisler: Yeah. I agree. It’s somewhere in that is the difference between the out the billable rate that clients hate and value, that clients love should be relevant, be valuable, have a bit of empathy, all that stuff that is sometimes under taught.

Steve Fretzin: Hey, man, this has been amazing. Every acronym, every kind of word outta your mouth has been absolute gold, and I’m really hopeful that the lawyers that are listening right now either replay this or have a page notes the way I do. I’ve written down some amazing acronyms and things that I think will be helpful to me and my clients.

And let’s wrap this up though, because we have to, we have a time limit, a time box, as you call it. We’ve got our game changing book. Tute Ching. Yeah. Lyle Zoo. What the heck is that?

Alex Geisler: This thing was written 2300 years ago, 300 years before Christ, plus or minus a couple of weeks, and he was [00:30:00] the first towers and he’s, it’s the ultimate coaching guidebook for relationships.

I have verse eight up on my desk, every desk I’ve had for 30 years, and it’s all about treat others well. Stand by your words. Make fair rules. Do the. Work when it’s time only, do not contend and you will not go wrong. Wow.

Steve Fretzin: You like that? I love that. I’m gonna listen back to that and replay it because it’s, again, it’s so deep and heavy and it’s amazing the 2300 years and we’re still in awe of what’s said, especially how many stupid things were said today.

Yeah. We gotta go back and listen to people who were intelligent back in the day. Hey man. Thanks so much. Let’s take a moment. Thank our sponsors. Of course. Check out PIM Con everybody. If you’re a personal injury and you wanna go to the most impactful event of the year, you’re gonna wanna check out Pim Con happening in Scottsdale, Arizona in October.[00:31:00]

And of course, the LA Her podcast. Another amazing podcast to check out everybody. Sonya’s, putting out, amazing episodes every single week. Alex, if people wanna get in touch with you, they wanna hear more about Lex Flow, growth Partners and Lean Law and all the things you’ve shared today, what are the best ways for them to find and reach you?

Alex Geisler: So the best way is at the brand new website. It used to be called lean Law. It’s was changed over the weekend. I did it with my daughter who’s marking savvy and I’m not. So you can get to me at info at. Lex Flow grow L-E-X-F-L-O-W-G-R-O w.com, lex flow grow.com.

Steve Fretzin: All right. You moved from the law to the comm.

I like it. Yeah. All right. Thanks so much, Alex. This again was just such a wonderful, conversation, interview, whatever you want to call it, and the stuff you’re sharing is so critical, especially for lawyers who are finding that they’re just working too hard on that. Business development tread treadmill where they’ve gotta figure out, Hey, how do I expand these relationships [00:32:00] into long-term relationships?

And you just articulated it wonderfully today. So thank you so much.

Alex Geisler: Oh, thank you. I really enjoyed the chat. Thanks for the invitation.

Steve Fretzin: Absolutely. And I think this is the beginning of something special. I enjoy, this and in our first conversation and more to come, I’m hoping. Yeah, me too.

And thank you everybody for spending some time with Alex and I on the Be That Lawyer podcast with Fretzin and we are here twice a week. So go back and listen to, we’re coming up on 500. Go back and listen to some that you may have missed. Everyone has multiple gems. Loaded in there and we wanna make sure that we’re continuing to add value for you and your best lawyer life.

Thanks everybody. Take care. Be safe. Be well. We will talk again soon.

Narrator: Thanks for listening. To be that lawyer, life-changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit steve’s website Fretzin.com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing. [00:33:00] Trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes.