Jamie Rubin: Why Legal Business Development Is a Marathon, Not a Sprint

Discover how a jazz pianist turned niche entertainment work into a powerhouse advertising, privacy, and tech practice—and why treating business development as a marathon, not a sprint, has allowed him to build a loyal, decades‑long client base. In this episode, you’ll hear practical, battle‑tested strategies for specialization, client relationships, and training the next generation of rainmakers.

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Jamie Rubin discuss:

• Lawyer’s journey as a marathon, not a sprint
• Building a niche/specialist practice and moving firms
• Impact of legal operations, budgets, and alternative fee arrangements
• Personal branding vs. firm branding and the “Info Law Group way”
• Training younger lawyers in organized, non-salesy business development

Key Takeaways:

• Treating a legal career like a marathon allows room for ebbs and flows in work while staying confident that consistent effort will pay off over time.
• Specializing deeply in a niche practice area or industry builds trust and makes it easier for clients to follow you, even when you change firms.
• Modern in‑house legal operations demand sharper budgeting, clearer estimates, and more flexible fee arrangements, forcing outside counsel to become better business partners.
• Strong client loyalty grows from genuine personal relationships—helping clients succeed, understanding how they are judged internally, and making them look good in front of their own stakeholders.
• Younger lawyers can learn business development by following a structured, organized process that avoids pushy “sales” tactics and instead focuses on thoughtful questions, careful listening, and well‑practiced messaging.

“My big mistake is not truly understanding my client’s perspective.” —  Jamie Rubin

Check out my new show, Be That Lawyer Coaches Corner, and get the strategies I use with my clients to win more business and love your career again.

Join the Be That Lawyer Community and connect with ambitious lawyers who are serious about growing their book of business, strengthening their brand, and becoming confident, consistent rainmakers.

Ready to go from good to GOAT in your legal marketing game? Don’t miss PIMCON—where the brightest minds in professional services gather to share what really works. Lock in your spot now: https://www.pimcon.org/

Thank you to our Sponsor!

LEX Reception: https://www.lexreception.com/partners/bethatlawyer

Rankings.io: https://rankings.io/

Lawyer.com: https://www.lawyer.com/

Ready to grow your law practice without selling or chasing? Book your free 30-minute strategy session now—let’s make this your breakout year: https://fretzin.com/

About Jamie Rubin: Jamie Rubin is an advertising, technology, and privacy lawyer who guides clients through bringing traditional and emerging campaigns from initial concept to execution. Ranked as a Leader by Chambers and Partners and recognized by Best Lawyers, his practice covers national and digital advertising, celebrity agreements, sweepstakes, social media marketing, and claim substantiation. Certified as an Artificial Intelligence Governance Professional (AIGP) and a member of the International Association of Privacy Professionals (IAPP), Jamie previously practiced as a partner at Wildman Harrold Allen & Dixon LLP and was named one of the “40 Illinois Attorneys Under 40 To Watch” by Law Bulletin Publishing Company.

Connect with Jamie Rubin:

Website: https://www.infolawgroup.com/jamie-rubin

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jrubinadlawyer/

Connect with Steve Fretzin:

LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

Instagram: @fretzinsteve

Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.

Website: Fretzin.com

Email: Steve@Fretzin.com

Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!

YouTube: Steve Fretzin

Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Steve Fretzin  [00:00]

Hey everybody! Before we get to the show, just want to remind you that the Be That Lawyer community is up and running and rock and rolling. We have a lot of amazing business developer and rainmaking attorneys in there. We’ve got incredible content, courses, live events, and all kinds of ways to help you to be that lawyer. Check it out today at bethatlawyer.com/community And other than that, please enjoy the show.

 

Narrator  [00:29]

You’re listening to Be That Lawyer: Life-Changing Strategies and Resources for Growing a Successful Law Practice. Each episode, your host, author, and lawyer coach Steve Fretzin will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin. Hey,

 

Steve Fretzin  [00:51]

everybody! Steve Fretzin here, and welcome to the Be That Lawyer podcast. If you are a longtime listener, it has been a rodeo. It’s been a ride. We’re 620 something episodes in, and really just here to help you be that lawyer, someone that’s going to build a book, own the future, and be that lawyer. So you’re coming to the right place. I did do an AI search recently, and we are the number one business development for lawyers podcast. Now that is incredibly specific. So I did stop. I’m no Joe Rogan, but I’ll take it. I’ll take what I can get, and and as long as we’re helping you to accomplish what you’re trying to accomplish in your legal career, absolutely humbled and thrilled by that. And on a rare occasion, I’m I’m so thrilled to bring a client, a friend, someone that I truly respect and and really enjoy in the industry. And I’ve got Jamie here today. How you doing, Jamie?

 

Jamie Rubin  [01:39]

I’m doing well. Can’t believe you’re 620 episodes. That’s amazing. It’s breezy.

 

Steve Fretzin  [01:44]

It’s gone by in a blink.

 

Jamie Rubin  [01:46]

Yeah, I feel like I knew you when you were this.

 

Steve Fretzin  [01:48]

Yeah, when I was this

 

Jamie Rubin  [01:50]

fantastic. Yeah,

 

Steve Fretzin  [01:51]

was this wide?

 

Jamie Rubin  [01:53]

Very quite an amazing feat for you. So congratulations.

 

Steve Fretzin  [01:55]

Thank you, thank you. I appreciate that. And you know something that I think you and I both say all the time, and this is the quote of the show. But we don’t know who said it. We don’t need to know who said it. It makes sense, and it’s the lawyer’s journey. This quote, and it’s it’s a marathon, not a sprint. So welcome to the show. I’m so happy you’re here, and give us a little thought about that about that quote and why it’s meaningful to you.

 

Jamie Rubin  [02:16]

Well, it’s meaningful to me because my business has ebbed and flowed throughout the course of my career from different types of work within my niche and specialty to extreme busy times to times where you’re wondering, well, what do you know? Where’s the next matter coming in, or how come I only have eight matters when I used to have 20? And what I’ve learned to do is always have my pedal to the metal, but at the same time, not fret about the downtime, knowing that I have put in the work and that there will be that there it is. It’s a marathon, not a sprint. I’m I’m not doing things that are going to negatively impact the way that I see my profession because I do love it, and that has bode well for how I train myself. You’ve trained me, and I train others.

 

Steve Fretzin  [03:10]

Yeah, well, and I love that, and I and I take it. And this is funny. So lawyers will sometimes engage me to work with them, and I’m not saying this is you, but I’m just saying like there are lawyers I’m working with right now that engage me to where we’ve they haven’t even like shown up for a class yet and they get a bunch of matters and I’m like see it works it is a sprint it is a sprint it happened no but ultimately you know business development and building your book of business is a marathon and it is going to take time it is going to take energy but like if you’re running a marathon and you’re trying to win there are shortcuts. There are ways to you know get trained up. There’s things that you could eat and drink and exercise and ways of stretching that will help you run the marathon more quickly and more efficiently. And that’s kind of how I take it. If we’re going to run the marathon, let’s run it at our peak performance, especially something that directly impacts income and revenue and freedom and all that. Well, everybody, you’re in for a treat today. Jamie Rubin is the co-managing partner of Info Law Group here in beautiful Chicago. I want to hear about that, and also just to just to share how what a big fan I am of your. You’re gonna have to maybe lay this out, but the Park Ridge Barbecue. I wear the T-shirt all the time that I got from the lat from two years ago.

 

Jamie Rubin  [04:17]

Vine Street.

 

Steve Fretzin  [04:18]

What? Yeah, what’s it called? What’s the that’s the barbecue competition.

 

Jamie Rubin  [04:21]

It’s called Vine Street Barbecue Competition at Ant Fest. We added the Ant Fest after we started doing it because it became a thing where we not only have a Kansas City Barbecue Society sanctioned barbecue competition, but we turned it into a charitable event that has bands and food and food trucks and all this stuff, and we still fight the why. Why can’t we taste the competition food? But you know, that’s you know, there’s the food safety regulation. But we put on a great day for everybody, raise money for local causes, and I had the pleasure of starting my own 501 c3 to do this with three of my neighbors. Two of which also live on Vine, which is the genesis of the the name of the competition. It’ll be at august 15 this year, Saturday, august 15, in Uptown Park Ridge.

 

Steve Fretzin  [05:10]

There we go, awesome man. Well, I love that you do that, and I love the charity. And but let’s talk a little bit about Jamie Rubin, the businessman, the co managing partner Info Law Group. Tell everybody how you came to be.

 

Jamie Rubin  [05:20]

Sure. So the quick version is, I went to law school to be a music lawyer because I’m like a failed jazz pianist, and took a number of entertainment law courses in law school. Became a member as a law student of the Chicago Bar Association’s Entertainment Law committee met my first boss, who was the one of the only ones that told me that I could do entertainment law in Chicago. Because at that time, in 1998 1999 you were we were still in the mode of you got to go west, you got to go east. I wasn’t leaving the Midwest, and got my first job at a firm called the Entertainment and Intellectual Property group doing all sorts of talent type work, some promotions and advertising work, but that’s where really I I learned that I didn’t want to represent talent, and I saying that tongue in cheek a little bit. No, but my focus really became on representing companies and brands in the space, doing the advertising, marketing, promotion, entertainment, music deals, all that stuff that goes into launching content generally, whether that’s on the advertising side or the TV or in movie side. And after three good years at that firm, I moved over to Wildman Harrold, and I think a lot of people know that firm. It that has rolled up into a number of firms over the years, and now is part of Locke Lord, and really cut my teeth. Learned from some amazing lawyers. I’ve been a longtime partner with Justine Gottschall, who is still my partner today. And after nine great years with Justine and others at Wildman, we left to start Info Law Group, and it was on the precipice of Wildman rolling up into Edwards Angell. And it was just time. Loved my time at Wildman. I learned so many great things from a lot of great lawyers. We built an amazing book of business, an amazing practice group, and kind of plucked it and started Info Law Group with a few other lawyers that had started the Info Law Group brand about a year before us, and then we’ve since kind of taken it to the next step.

 

Steve Fretzin  [07:34]

Yeah,

 

Jamie Rubin  [07:35]

and love all those people.

 

Steve Fretzin  [07:36]

Yeah, and the size of your firm now, like you’ve got about is it 20 lawyers, 20 plus?

 

Jamie Rubin  [07:41]

Yep. So we’re 17 lawyers, three paralegals, some billing specialists, and a COO. And I don’t know how we did it so long without a COO, but our COO was amazing, and her name’s Eva, and we just love what she’s done for the organization of our firm.

 

Steve Fretzin  [07:56]

Fantastic. Now you mentioned, you know, before moving out on your own and starting your own, you know, your own show. That you built a book at this at your the previous firm, and that’s before we met, right? We met a number of years ago, and we worked together. And I want to get into that later, but mostly I want to understand like how did you feel and think and act around business development? How did you see it, and then how did you ultimately build a book that allowed you to kind of go off on your own in style.

 

Jamie Rubin  [08:24]

I think some of it is some age-old wisdom. Number one is become a specialist. That was very key in the way that I was able to bring clients and have clients trust me. Especially in the Midwest, there wasn’t a ton of people doing what I do, and so at that time, we weren’t. We didn’t have Zoom. We had phones, of course, and we had the beginnings of email. But it still mattered to some extent where you were and the ease of having you come into the office. And so, I we had a number of you know really institutional clients at Wildman that needed help in our area in the area that I could provide, but they didn’t have anybody else. In I don’t want to say in the city, but like they didn’t have others at Wildman. They didn’t have others at competing firms, and so it was a natural. Oh, we got we got a guy that does this, and then we have people that do this. And another one of my partners, Heather, came to the firm at Wildman and started doing this work with us, and she’s with us at and left with us and started in Polaw Group as well. And so it was really being a specialist. The days of the generalist were kind of not my focus of how I was going to get a ton of business. And the other thing, and you and I talk about this all the time, and I have to occasionally refocus myself is being in front of a client, doing the things that are. It’s easy to sit back, even especially on today, today’s day, and just do a Zoom with somebody. So, doing the hard traveling, going to lunch, being at their offices, the old sales of walking. Halls type thing that really works,

 

Steve Fretzin  [10:02]

yeah.

 

Jamie Rubin  [10:03]

And you know, I think you’ll probably ask the question, you know, and I’ll just hit it, you know, why why would we even need to work together then, right? And that’s where we come in with the on the marathon side of things. The there are some things to make it easier, to make it easier to be the best, to be better, and so I needed a little kick in the pants on that.

 

Steve Fretzin  [10:25]

Yeah, well, and again, I think lawyers know this pretty well that you know you can figure stuff out on your own. We all do, right? I smoke you know meat and and love that, but you know I would rather watch a video. I’d rather hear from someone like you that knows and has done it before that I can learn from and make the changes and the improvements that make things delicious. And you know, my wife, I make smoked salmon for her, and I mean, it’s maybe her favorite thing. That not only that I make that she eats generally. She’s like, “Can you make that next week? I’m like, “Yeah, for you, sure. I don’t really care for it. I’m not a huge fan, but you know, little dill sauce. So ultimately, it’s about those improvements. So, I’d love to hear your thoughts too on how legal marketing and business development has changed. Obviously, the last 10 years and in the last couple of years have been really different and impactful. What’s your kind of take on in that, and maybe how that impacts you know your lawyers in general and what how they should be thinking about marketing.

 

Jamie Rubin  [11:21]

Yeah. So one of the the biggest things that I’ve noticed is my client always was the direct person I was dealing with. That’s the in-house lawyer, the AGC, the GC, and now there are tentacles of a client with the advent of legal ops, and that I railed against that for years. I really, I didn’t like being treated as a vendor, right? And now I’m coming around to the realization that I I have to deal. I have to deal with that. But I’m also understanding a little bit better about it’s making me a better budgeter, giving estimates, sticking to them, and I don’t mean like I was purposely blowing things, but it was easy for a matter to get out of control. Still is easy for a matter to get out of control, and I could go back to the well and say, you know what? Look, this got out of control, and we need to build more than the original estimate. Well, now there’s a real process for that. That’s a change order. That’s so we’re being treated like I negotiate a lot of tech vendor deals, a lot of agency agreements with advertising agencies and promotion agencies, and so I’m really accustomed to what those deals look like and how they count for overages and underages and budgeting. And now I’m having to really understand how to do that for every one of my clients that has the legal ops folks, and so I’ve got two clients. I’ve got my client that I’m working with you on everyday basis, and and helping with certain types of legal matters, and then I’m working on separately on budgeting and estimates and RFPs and flat fee arrangements and all the things, and being nimble is good. You know, we at Info Law Group have the ability to be pretty nimble because we’re a boutique, and I think a lot of legal ops folks like that. But this is the thing that I’m still getting used to, and so that’s the biggest thing that’s changed for me over the last 10 years.

 

Steve Fretzin  [13:16]

Well, and you’ve already shared a couple of really important points. You know, for lawyers listening, you know the importance of specialization either in a practice area. It could also be in an industry, right? Focusing on a particular industry, and then the other part of it is being nimble and knowing that you got to be flexible and you got to kind of things are changing and the billable hour maybe you know having some serious challenges coming up. How are people setting themselves up for flat fee and for figuring out, you know, how to make a win-win with a client? And so, you know, I think you know the world is changing. We got to kind of understand, like, in marketing too. I was just talking to you’re in one of my Rainmaker Roundtable groups. I met with the other group today. By the way, attendance was better than your group. Just so you know, I was just kidding, sort of kidding. No, I just had a full room. I was loving it, and we talked about branding. and And I think, you know, even though Info Law Group is the brand, you know, there’s the Jamie Rubin brand, right? There’s the Steve Fretzen brand, and so we’re learning more and more that people are following people. They’re not following companies as much, and so we have to step up and figure out like how are we gonna reach our targets. How are we gonna communicate with them? What’s your take on on how you’re building the Info Law Group and the Jamie Rubin brand?

 

Jamie Rubin  [14:28]

Well, I give you a little anecdote that kind of feeds into what you’re saying here. When we left Wildman to join and start Info Law Group, we were very concerned on what clients were going to come with us, as you might be, as anybody would be, with you’re trying to take a book of business with you, and you just don’t know because ethics rules prevent you from talking to those clients about the fact you’re leaving until you’re gone and at the new at the new place. So it’s a really, really tough situation. But when I started. Talking to my clients once I was able to once over here, they said we hire Jamie Rubin or we hire Justine or we hire Heather, and it wasn’t about the brand name of the firm and because you are specialists because you have expertise in the niche area, we’re following you, and those two things combined, you know, we know you as a lawyer, and you have a specialty. Kind of wraps up nicely one of your first questions, which is how are you successful? But it also addresses this topic as well, and transferring that into Info Law Group is we have a way. I mean, I think some people at our firm that have joined us from other firms that haven’t been at Info Law Group for their entire career, they have said to us, “There’s the Info Law Group way, right? And believe I’m not drinking Kool-Aid here, right? I just think we are trying to train others to be, to practice in the same way we practice, to market in the same way we market, and that’s how we kind of meld those two things: the Jamie Rubin brand and the Info Law Group brand. Yeah.

 

Steve Fretzin  [16:08]

Hey everybody, your next big client might call at 8 p.m. on a Saturday night. The question is, who’s picking up? With Lex Reception, a real person answers every call 24 hours a day, seven days a week, so you never miss a lead, no matter when they reach out. No AI agents, no voicemail, just professional, legal literate receptionists representing your firm the right way around the clock. And right now, be that lawyer listeners get 250 off their first month. Visit www.lexreception.com/partners/bethatlawyer to claim your offer, that’s www.lexreception.com/partners/bedotlawyer. Hey everybody, Steve Fretzen here, and at Lawyer.com, they don’t just market law firms; they help them grow from connecting millions of consumers to trusted lawyers to smarter intake and industry-leading events, they’re building stronger connections across legal visibility, intake, events, growth. That’s lawyer.com. Check them out today. With proven SEO and digital marketing strategies that drive actual clients to your firm, rankings.io prides itself on proof, not promises mentality. The best firms hire Rankings.io when they want rankings, traffic, and cases other law firm marketing agencies can’t deliver. Get more rankings, get cases, and schedule a free consultation at Rankings.io today. So there’s what how you were marketing in the past, and then there’s what we worked on, and what what are you seeing makes a lawyer and what has made you you know uber successful as it relates to business development, marketing, branding, like getting out there and bringing in the business.

 

Jamie Rubin  [17:52]

Well, first of all, I think that we spend a lot of time understanding our clients, becoming the institutional knowledge we have been, and I talk about this all the time with potential clients. We have been with a lot of our clients for 20 plus years, and so getting to know them personally, getting to know their business in the same way they know it or better, is extremely important. And that’s non billable time. That’s investment, and that that matters.

 

Steve Fretzin  [18:20]

That’s the that’s the glue that that’s missing from some people is that’s a transaction and it shouldn’t be right. It should be a social relationship. It should be you know you’re their conciliary, you’re their advisor, right?

 

Jamie Rubin  [18:32]

Yeah, and through thick and thin, right? I mean,

 

Steve Fretzin  [18:34]

yeah.

 

Jamie Rubin  [18:35]

I and I don’t makes it. It wasn’t. Now we’re talking about it like it’s a plan, right? I really I’ve been lucky enough to work with people that I really like throughout my career. Have I had a few clients that I was like, okay, you know, we can part ways.

 

Steve Fretzin  [18:50]

You know who you are,

 

Jamie Rubin  [18:51]

but yeah, but and so it makes me enjoy it better when I have that relationship with a client, and so it’s somewhat of a self-fulfilling prophecy in a very positive way that I get involved with my clients; they want to get involved with me, and that is the stickiness. And so, it’s not like a trick, you know. It helps me too. I want to enjoy my work, and so it has this ability to do that.

 

Steve Fretzin  [19:16]

Well, there’s a there’s a side point you made earlier that relates to exactly what you’re saying, you develop a relationship, a deep relationship with clients, so they stay loyal, they stay with you, and I think you may have said in a recent meeting that you basically just go there and you meet with them, see them, and you always walk away with work, new work, right?

 

Jamie Rubin  [19:34]

Right.

 

Steve Fretzin  [19:34]

So, like, that’s not rocket science. That’s what a number of my clients and the folks in our group will say: is I just have to go out and get in front of the people who already think we’re great that I already have a strong relationship with, and it’s upsell, it’s cross sell, it’s introductions, it’s all there, and that’s one of the best parts about building your own book. But you have to do the small things in between so that it is, you know, that it makes it that sticky.

 

Jamie Rubin  [20:00]

Yep, and I don’t like being salesy. You know that, but at the same time, I feel like there’s been a lot of things that I’ve missed out on because I haven’t made the ask when I should have.

 

Steve Fretzin  [20:15]

Yeah,

 

Jamie Rubin  [20:15]

and so and that that’s some of the things that you and I have talked about.

 

Steve Fretzin  [20:19]

Yeah, yeah,

 

Jamie Rubin  [20:20]

and worked and worked done.

 

Steve Fretzin  [20:21]

Yeah, and so getting comfortable with the ask isn’t, you know, saying to a client, “Look, you know I’m great. I know I’m great. You should be sending me people, right? And you’re not, and you should. No, that’s not a language that you and I speak. That’s the language of someone who’s got some real key honeys. Like now, if the if the relationship is that deep, you probably could get away with something like that, but mostly, Rivera and I would agree that we want to take a softer approach. And if there’s a way to make it their idea, or if there’s a way to make it more comfortable, we’re gonna utilize language that does that.

 

Jamie Rubin  [20:53]

Yep. Yep. And really, this is maybe jumping ahead a little bit on a topic, but getting the understanding the client’s perspective and the ways in which you’ve either made them happy or look good is ammunition for you in a good way. In a good way that helps you figure out the best way with each particular client to approach the subtle ask.

 

Steve Fretzin  [21:17]

Yeah, we actually have created in the past lists of things that we call like you know developing client loyalty and how to do it, and there’s like lists of things of including them on panels or figuring out how to help them you know hire an assistant GC or helping their kid get into a college or get an interview at a job at a company, and we don’t people don’t realize these are the small incremental. It could be large, but you know things that we’re doing to be more valuable than I provide a service and you pay me money for that. And this is what I think is one of the many, many things that’s made you so successful in being able to leverage those clients and to build them out and get referrals and get more business. So

 

Jamie Rubin  [21:58]

yeah, and to be honest with you, I mean, it comes down to this word, friends, right? I am, in fact, friends with a lot of my clients, and they’ve done the things that you’re talking about. They’ve done for me too, you know. Helped get an interview for somebody I know if I need if, or someone in need, or point me in the right direction, introduce me to somebody that has this expertise where I need it, you know, and so it’s surrounding yourself with those givers to and being a giver. I think it’s really helpful.

 

Steve Fretzin  [22:27]

So you and I worked together on it in a number of capacities, and you took what we worked on together and made a strategic decision to try to insert that into your law firm and help some of your younger people out. Which not only do I think is an incredible, you know, task, but I also think it just shows the generosity of your spirit that you’re saying, “Look, I know this now, and what I’ve learned on my own, and what I’ve learned with Steve, and I’m going to try to impart that. And what would you say is really the most couple of the most important things for young lawyers to know moving into you know 2026 and beyond, that they need to be considering because you’re you’re in the weeds with them on this.

 

Jamie Rubin  [23:06]

Sure, one is there is a way to be organized about this, and we can talk about those tactics. But there is a way to be organized in a way that it doesn’t make you feel overwhelmed with the task of being entrepreneurial, okay. So that’s number one. Number two is, and this I know you kind of have to sit in a room for this one, but understanding how you talk to a prospective client or a current client, and how you pick up on cues to raise a topic, and so we talk about that a lot. You talk about it in the way of like having a script, having an elevator pitch, having your infomercial, and practicing it so much that it doesn’t sound like an infomercial. It doesn’t sound like an elevator pitch. It doesn’t sound like someone just asked you what you do. And so, practicing that and understanding the language that you want to present, like that’s something that is low hanging and makes people kind of think about what am I, how am I presenting? Yeah,

 

Steve Fretzin  [24:09]

right. And knowing what questions to ask and how to get people to open up, right. And the more you know, like information, you know, you know, the more you know, right, the better off you are to craft your infomercial differently, or to know maybe how we can collaborate versus this is someone out to sell me and I need to get the hell away or whatever. It’s just there’s cues, but there’s also questions and there’s listening and skills that that allow us to sort of you know figure things out maybe more quickly than if we’re just going at it you know, talking to people.

 

Jamie Rubin  [24:41]

Yeah, and the last thing that I think they, the our junior lawyers are enamored with, I think, and I was kind of enamored with it too, is the concept of you know basically disarming people in a conversation so that they feel comfortable. You talked about opening up, and we, you know. It’s like the whole concept of you know someone is going to be saying yes five times. That makes them feel calm in a situation, calm in a conversation. Then you can have like a real open and honest conversation about whatever you’re there to talk about.

 

Steve Fretzin  [25:12]

Yeah, and what Jamie’s alluding to, everybody, is we talk about setting game plans. For example, for networking meetings. So if I establish you know the time, and I establish the purpose of why we’re getting together. And Jamie’s just agreeing with me. Yes, that sounds like a good purpose to see if it’s a fit, or that we’re going to spend 60 minutes together. Great, or that we’re going to split up our talk time so that we can each learn about each other. Jamie’s thrilled with that, and just getting all that positive verbal confirmation that what I’m looking for and what I’m suggesting we should do together makes sense for both parties, and so it gives lawyers, to your point, that ammunition and that like a process to follow and some language to follow that makes this easier versus you know just winging it like most people do. So you’ve been through the trenches with me, my friend. You started off in my sales reselling program to take you know things the next level. You transitioned into Rainmakers Roundtable, which you’ve been a leader in that group, I think, since its existence. Talk a little bit about, if you wouldn’t mind, you know, not to stroke my ego, but just to give people an idea of what we’re doing together and why why you’ve stayed with me all these years.

 

Jamie Rubin  [26:20]

Well, starting with the training that we did for what was nine months, six or nine months, the program that was invaluable for me figuring out how to it’s age old adage and too much used cliche work smarter, not harder, because there it was a we talk about oh on Tuesday I was in the middle of doing a contract and oh, I forgot to call that person, and then I got to do that lunch, or you know, oh my, I forgot to prepare for this networking event, or whatever it is. And to this day, I still use the, I call it the sandboxing feature, right? I know I’m paying myself Thursday between one and 2o’clock and doing it every day. So there, that’s so I I know that I’m sandboxing all of my marketing tasks for that period of time. Is it going to really stay all within an hour? No, but it helps me focus for that hour and helps me do all my other billable work the rest of the week. There are 20 little things like that that we talked about during the course of your course, and I employ a lot of them in my own way, so I thought they were genius. You talk about it not being rocket science, but it helped me greatly. So being able to employ those things, I could rattle off another five. But that’s just an example. So that’s and that. So you got me on that, right? And I I love those tactics, and I employ them so that I can do use all these cliches, low hanging fruit, and not wasting any time, and it’s a marathon, not a sprint, and all these things.

 

Steve Fretzin  [27:48]

Maybe I need to write a book of cliches for this. You’re this broke. You’re

 

Jamie Rubin  [27:52]

fulfilling. You’re fulfilling the the cliche prophecies.

 

Steve Fretzin  [27:55]

There you go.

 

Jamie Rubin  [27:56]

And then the Raymakers roundtable made sense to me. You know, I really enjoy having people to bounce things off of. It turns out that a number of the folks in our particular cohort are not only have a great book of business, but they’re leaders at their firm. Whether it’s the owner of the firm or they have a significant role in some way, they’re a big mentor or have a leadership role somehow, and so that for me has been invaluable from a managing partner perspective. So we’re talking a lot about how do we get more business and how do we network with each other to make each other more successful. But I also have questions on hiring and firing, and how is AI taking over your firm, and what are you doing about this? And it’s just been invaluable to have that cohort, and as I talk to other people in other networking, it’s only as good as the level of participation. And you also do a great job of making sure that people are not going to just sit there.

 

Steve Fretzin  [28:54]

Yeah, and we got to get them engaged and get everybody talking, and maybe we do some breakout rooms and we workshop things and keep it as interactive as possible. Bring in some guest speakers, right? That are experts in different areas. But

 

Jamie Rubin  [29:06]

yeah,

 

Steve Fretzin  [29:07]

you’ve been an incredible leader in that. And I and I and your you know your attitude about it is you know rising tide lifts all boats. And you’ve you’ve always kind of been that way internally and externally. So appreciate that. Hey, let’s take a moment. Let’s thank our amazing sponsors, lawyer.com. Lex Reception, and PimCon. And before we go, I have one last question for you, Jamie. What’s Jamie’s big mistake?

 

Jamie Rubin  [29:29]

My big mistake, little preview, is not truly understanding my client’s perspective. I was told during this is a lot of years ago, thankfully. I was told that I was the worst lawyer of all time by a client that really didn’t like the way that something happened, and it had nothing to do with my advice. The legal advice was sound, and she even said it. It was that somehow in the delivering of the advice to her business. Business person, I made her look really bad, and I didn’t appreciate it. It was a really amateur thing, and actually, at the time, I was being yelled at. I didn’t even get it, and now I sit back and say, when I’m delivering this advice, and I’m maybe even delivering it to my client’s client, internal client, how is that going to look from a company perspective, from my client’s perspective, and it’s really helped shape the way I approach delivering advice. But that was a huge mistake, not not knowing that. But I’m glad. I’m glad. You know what? I’m glad it happened.

 

Steve Fretzin  [30:35]

And yeah, right. That’s the whole point of this little this little blip at the end of each show is that we all make mistakes, and it’s how we learn from them, and what we can take away and do better. And I have a dozen of these that I don’t think I would be where I am if I hadn’t have made those stupid, stupid mistakes, and you know, cause myself sleepless nights. But that’s how we get better. If everything’s a smooth, right, smooth sailing all the way through, we don’t learn anything. So, hey, man, thanks so much, Jamie. People want to get in touch with you. They want to join your firm. They want to network with you. They want to send work your way. What’s the best digits for you?

 

Jamie Rubin  [31:09]

Best digits for me are 630-240-3320 or J ruben@infolawgroup.com J R U B I n@infolawgroup.com@infolawgroup.com We are doing all things advertising law, privacy and data security law, and tech law.

 

Steve Fretzin  [31:27]

Fantastic, fantastic. Well, thanks for coming on, and you know, really happy that you’re not only you know sharing your wisdom, but you know, able to talk a little bit about our engagements together, helping you know lawyers sort of figure this thing out. It’s not what they signed up for, and we’re not what you signed up for when you graduate law school, and and here we are. So much appreciate it, my friend.

 

Jamie Rubin  [31:46]

Indeed, thanks so much.

 

Steve Fretzin  [31:48]

Yeah, and thank you everybody for hanging out with us for the last 30 and change. You know, this is an opportunity to build your book on your future and be that lawyer. Everybody, take care, be safe and well. We will talk again soon.

 

Narrator  [32:03]

Thanks for listening to Be That Lawyer: Life-Changing Strategies and Resources for Growing a Successful Law Practice. Visit Steve’s website, fretzin.com, for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes.